Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Again I demur on that last point: could prescients see possible pasts?

If not, and if it is a vision of a possible past, Leto has to be feeding it to her telepathically, no? Does anything in the passage support that?

To me it makes more sense that she is seeing a possible future in which the GP is not established. Just because Leto nixxed an Ixian threat once in the past (referred to before Siona's vision scene) doesn't mean they still couldn't create another if he fails in his plans.

(There's no support for this in this passage, but I've mentioned before how Leto can cause the GP to go winky-winky by imagining throwing himself off his high tower in the Sareer. If he imagined such a thing while Siona was tripping, she would tap into possible futures without the GP...which inevitably would lead to human extinction.)

Freakzilla wrote:What does that vision have to do with a terminator-style jihad?

Beside's IMO Siona's vision is of a possible past, in which humans would all be hunted down by Ixian self-improving hunter-seekers, that Leto prevented early in his reign, which was a result of his metamorphasis.

No Freakzilla I wasn't talking about the Jihad, I was speculating that perhaps, for the Real Dune 7, he was planning to incorporate killing machines.

I interpret that this is a vision of a one of many possible Futures.

What were the Honored Matres running from? Was this vision predicting them?

cmsahe wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:What does that vision have to do with a terminator-style jihad?

Beside's IMO Siona's vision is of a possible past, in which humans would all be hunted down by Ixian self-improving hunter-seekers, that Leto prevented early in his reign, which was a result of his metamorphasis.

No Freakzilla I wasn't talking about the Jihad, I was speculating that perhaps, for the Real Dune 7, he was planning to incorporate killing machines.

I interpret that this is a vision of a one of many possible Futures.

What were the Honored Matres running from? Was this vision predicting them?

It was never stated in CH:D what the Honored Matres were fleeing, but I got the sense their empire was overthrown and they were being chased back into the Old Empire by super Face Dancers, Futars, biological weapons, and whatever else HUMANS in the Scattering had developed. I stress humans because I don't buy they were running from Omnius and Erasmus.

Frybread wrote:I stress humans because I don't buy they were running from Omnius and Erasmus.

I do now think there would have been a machine element in there - it is the kind of bonkers turn of events FH would spring. Being predictable isn't Dune.

I don't have a problem imagining that FH wrote a handful of sentences (if that) about computers in a first-draft outline for Dune 7 ... But as we know the hacks and FH have very different ideas about thinking machines and their role in Dune and the outcome was kind of predictable.

cmsahe wrote:Oi Schu!: Only stupids say stupidities and I'm not stupid.

I'm not arguing against your opinions, just your demeanour. I agree completely that the butlerian jihad wasn't the terminator-style thing that is written in the new crap, and that Baron Harkonnen was not made fat by an STD (actually I found a little quote recently in support of that the Baron did it to himself recently, something about the predator being "ever hungry and never stopping.... like me"). I just think the way you're posting there is objectionable, and that it is not a good deed but merely something you do to stroke your own ego or give yourself a bit of fun by stirring up a nest of ants.

Schu wrote:I just think the way you're posting there is objectionable, and that it is not a good deed but merely something you do to stroke your own ego or give yourself a bit of fun by stirring up a nest of ants.

Please, please, please cease and desist with your holier-than-thou "oh, you're making me look bad; and why can't we all just get along and have a nice dialogue and then share a cup of hot chocolate?" bullshit.

We're each only responsible for what we do and say as individuals.

If idiot mouthbreathers lump us all together, that's their mistake and problem, not ours. Take it up with them, not us. (But good luck getting the point across. After all, they're idiots! )

I personally (again) have no intention of playing nice with stupid people. Being nice to the mentally challenged just gives them the mistaken impression that they're OK and have a right to open their mouths and voice their dumb-ass opinions just like everyone else.

TheDukester wrote:

Schu wrote:I just think the way you're posting there is objectionable, and that it is not a good deed but merely something you do to stroke your own ego or give yourself a bit of fun by stirring up a nest of ants.

Please, please, please cease and desist with your holier-than-thou "oh, you're making me look bad; and why can't we all just get along and have a nice dialogue and then share a cup of hot chocolate?" bullshit.

Tell ya what?

I wont post any "holier than thou" stuff so long as others don't dress trolling up as a good deed.

And I don't want these particular people to "get along and have a hot chocolate" (although I could really do with a hot chocolate right now...). I think it's pointless to try for that, but deliberately antagonising people then saying it's "a good deed" is a bit warped in my view.

in a normal situation, on a normal board, I might agree with you.

sort of.

but That Asshole's board is a special case - lots of history and bad blood

any attack made against the 'official Dune forum' has My Blessing,
no matter how lame, vile, obscene, irrational or just plain stupid.

and I for one take no offense at "Talifan" - I think it accurately
describes my position - this is Jihad: Keith, the Wetbrain and That Asshole
are vile infidels. If I could figure out how to strap pipe bombs to Sloey
and get him run up in the middle of dunenovels.com, I would.

And I can sympathise with that. But I'm still going to continue doing it my way.

Schu wrote:I wont post any "holier than thou" stuff so long as others don't dress trolling up as a good deed.

Fair enough. And I'll continue to relentlessly mock anyone who posts any "boo-hoo, you make us all look bad" bullshit.

TheDukester wrote:

Schu wrote:I wont post any "holier than thou" stuff so long as others don't dress trolling up as a good deed.

Fair enough. And I'll continue to relentlessly mock anyone who posts any "boo-hoo, you make us all look bad" bullshit.

Sounds good

Schu wrote:And I can sympathise with that. But I'm still going to continue doing it my way.

hold up. I never anything about any which way you do anything.

you were the one coming done on Carlos, complaining about this
"making us all look bad" tripe.

the only issue I've brought up with you in this thread is the "OHian"
thing - which isn't just directed at you, BTW, don't feel special. As
far as I'm concerned, the constant, deliberate use of OHer, or OHianists,
or whatever is valid grounds for questioning that person's grasp of the
English language, and an instant loss of credibility.


hang on .... I think I hear Arnie typing up an "OHer on OHer Violence"
thread Over There ..... be right back .....

That's fine. I was just meaning to convey that I can understand how you feel that way, but that it doesn't change my opinion.

Hi Schu,

KJA has deeply offended me and, I am the one angry towards his demeanour and objectionable ideas.

I want you, Schu, to read again the "New Canon Inconsistencies" thread, page 19, the e-mail answer from KJA posted by Sandchigger, where he, the hack, demotes Dune and its sequels to the role of "Irulan’s purported histories of Muad’Dib", he, KJA, is saying that the stuff he is writting is the new Canon!!

As somebody answered, soon Dune will be nothing but the dream of a "Dallas" character! Pamela Ewing

viewtopic.php?t=44&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=270

Schu wrote:

cmsahe wrote:Oi Schu!: Only stupids say stupidities and I'm not stupid.

I'm not arguing against your opinions, just your demeanour. I agree completely that the butlerian jihad wasn't the terminator-style thing that is written in the new crap, and that Baron Harkonnen was not made fat by an STD (actually I found a little quote recently in support of that the Baron did it to himself recently, something about the predator being "ever hungry and never stopping.... like me"). I just think the way you're posting there is objectionable, and that it is not a good deed but merely something you do to stroke your own ego or give yourself a bit of fun by stirring up a nest of ants.

cmsahe- You seem to think that I dislike what you are saying because of a respect for KJA or something. Believe me, there is none. I dislike what you do because of simple logic telling me that what you are doing is counter-productive, illogical and hypocritical.

SandRider wrote:hang on .... I think I hear Arnie typing up an "OHer on OHer Violence" thread Over There ..... be right back .....

Seriously?

It would be like him to. Like Kevin, he relies on the ideas of others for inspiration.

Schu wrote:cmsahe- You seem to think that I dislike what you are saying because of a respect for KJA or something. Believe me, there is none. I dislike what you do because of simple logic telling me that what you are doing is counter-productive, illogical and hypocritical.

"Lord, I know you have evolved beyond the rest of us. That is why we worship you and..."

GEoD, pocketbook edition p364.

Schu wrote:cmsahe- You seem to think that I dislike what you are saying because of a respect for KJA or something. Believe me, there is none. I dislike what you do because of simple logic telling me that what you are doing is counter-productive, illogical and hypocritical.

You know i thought almost the same thing about hostility in this board once, "making us all look bad". But then i came to these simple conclusions:
- Anyone that wraps every person in this Forum under the same bundle is an idiot, an idiot doesnt care that it's each individual's ideas, an idiot cant see that it is a stand alone complex that has brought us all together, an idiot is very quick to make everyone look as the bad one while he/she as the good one. An idiot ignores all the arguments that may contradict that intention of his.
- In cases like this, civility is fucking overated. (like Chig once said)

By the way you should check Kevin's e-mailed response to the Dune fans that criticize his books; tribes in Africa go to war for less.

Seraphan wrote:

Schu wrote:cmsahe- You seem to think that I dislike what you are saying because of a respect for KJA or something. Believe me, there is none. I dislike what you do because of simple logic telling me that what you are doing is counter-productive, illogical and hypocritical.

You know i thought almost the same thing about hostility in this board once, "making us all look bad". But then i came to these simple conclusions:
- Anyone that wraps every person in this Forum under the same bundle is an idiot, an idiot doesnt care that it's each individual's ideas, an idiot cant see that it is a stand alone complex that has brought us all together, an idiot is very quick to make everyone look as the bad one while he/she as the good one. An idiot ignores all the arguments that may contradict that intention of his.
- In cases like this, civility is fucking overated. (like Chig once said)

By the way you should check Kevin's e-mailed response to the Dune fans that criticize his books; tribes in Africa go to war for less.

Believe me, I have. And it disgusts me.

I dunno about civility being overrated, for me, the jury's still out on that one, but simple logic isn't.

cmsahe - errr... you neeeeed to stop quoting. It isn't as cool as you think it is, especially in such an overdose as you have been doing it. A quote proves nothing, if you want to respond to me, at least use your own words.

Baraka Bryan wrote:

DuneFishUK wrote:

Frybread wrote:I stress humans because I don't buy they were running from Omnius and Erasmus.

I do now think there would have been a machine element in there - it is the kind of bonkers turn of events FH would spring. Being predictable isn't Dune.

I don't have a problem imagining that FH wrote a handful of sentences (if that) about computers in a first-draft outline for Dune 7 ... But as we know the hacks and FH have very different ideas about thinking machines and their role in Dune and the outcome was kind of predictable.

I agree on the machine element. people in the scattering would not feel the restrictions of the Great Convention and probably would have explored artificial intelligence. but it wouldn't have been terminator-style, and Frank would have presented it beautifully with commentary on human nature and possibly the inevitability of stagnation blah blah blah... at any rate, it wouldn't be cross-dressing robots and AIs with a god-complex

I DO think it was some form of AI or rougue face dancers, though i DON'T believe they were fleeing from the Dinobots or 2 quirky bots with personality disorders!!! As far as the machine elements of the story i'd have to agree with you. FH would've written a more graceful story that wouldn't need 7-8 books to stand on it's own(despite what the hacks would have us believe).AND the whole norma fiasco still kinda irks me but that's another tirade altogether

^^^ "I DO think it was some form of AI or rougue face dancers"

Have you never thought that the SFD or rfds as you put it are in fact a form of A.I. or a constructed one if that term tastes sweeter.

The people in The Scattering came from the Old Empire and probably would have the same minimum level of fear of AI. I think it's been ingrained for too long. Even the BG who never stopped using computers think twice when it comes to robots and cyborgs. I don't think people in the scattering would adhere to the proscriptions as much as their ancestors because of the nature of their scattering but I'm sure the lessons learned will always be in the back of their minds.

True, but utilizing AI doesn't nessecarily mean they have forgotten the lessons learned by their ancestors, and hopefully they will practice caution.

now that's something i'd never thought of. People from the scattering fleeing something they themselves help create. Freak, i don't think certain taboos would matter to some. For example look at the Honored Matres. Being gone so long & separated from tradition who's to say someone from Ix didn't dabble around with AI OR a Master didn't create a new kind of Face Dancer(Marty & Danial)? Whether or not these ideas were meant to be explored in D7, only the HLP know at this point & they ain't letting us peek!!