Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

FH in GEoD wrote:Involuntarily, Leto's thoughts sank into the memories aroused by these words.

"Ahhh, Moneo," he muttered. "My travels in the ancestral mazes have memorized uncounted places and events which I never desire to see repeated."

"I can imagine your inward travels, Lord."

"No, you cannot. I have seen peoples and planets in such numbers that they lose meaning even in imagination. Ohhh, the landscapes I have passed. The calligraphy of alien roads glimpsed from space and imprinted upon my innermost sight. The eroded sculpture of canyons and cliffs and galaxies has imprinted upon me the certain knowledge that I am a mote."

Over There somewhere ...

Merritt wrote:

Bel Moulay wrote:I saw someone mention a quote from Leto II about seeing distant roads and cities that were alien to him. Could it possibly be the organized city grids of the machine cities? I mean they would be alien to him considering it's impossible to store any ancestrial memories from machines for so many obvious reasons. What if the golden path was to strengthen mankind against it's ancient arch-nemesis who have been rapidly growing in the farthest reaches of the universe. Not only could Leto II wanted to strengthen the human race but also multiply their numbers for the ultimate battle ahead.

Lots of fan speculation on that one. Some say it was "alien" to Leto II only, not specifically an alien society (i.e., the machine society). Others say since Leto II was heavily prescient, not much could be hidden from him, so there is a high probability that this could be a machine city similar to what Brian and Kevin have written about.

To back up what Brian and Kevin are writing about, here are some words from God Emperor of Dune which could help clarify the possibility of a more powerful entity and an alien presence:

"I have seen peoples and planets in such numbers that they lose meaning even in imagination. Ohhh, the landscapes I have passed. The calligraphy of alien roads glimpsed from space and imprinted upon my innermost sight. The eroded sculpture of canyons and cliffs and galaxies has imprinted upon me the certain knowledge that I am a mote."

Someone picking and choosing their texts wrote:here are some words from God Emperor of Dune which could help clarify the possibility of a more powerful entity

...uncounted places and events...peoples and planets in such numbers that they lose meaning even in imagination...landscapes...alien roads glimpsed from space...The eroded sculpture of canyons and cliffs and galaxies...

Bel Moulay wrote:It could even be a Tleilaxu city road. Nobody has any ancestrial memories of theirs since they've always kept it to themselves without ever partaking in breeding with a powindah.

Baraka Bryan wrote:

Serkanner wrote:Byron ... shut the fuck up! You don't have the brains to understand TrueDune.

lol at first i read that as Bryan... and was like WTF did I do!

GamePlayer wrote:I heard it was some guy from Salusa Secundus. Got life, was sent to the prison planet, took some remedial courses and wrote book. Became a Best seller, I hear

Over There >> For Lovers of both the Classic Dune AND the Prequels » God Emperor of Dune (Let's Review) // today

katee84 wrote:

in God-Emperor of Dune, Frank Herbert wrote:“Yes, Lord.” Moneo was abashed, yet still curious. And he knew that the God Emperor sometimes waxed loquacious after the death of a Duncan.
“You must have seen many rebellions, Lord.”

Involuntarily, Leto’s thoughts sank into the memories aroused by these words.

“Ahhh, Moneo,” he muttered. “My travels in the ancestral mazes have memorized uncounted places and events which I never desire to see repeated.”

“I can imagine your inward travels, Lord.”

“No, you cannot. I have seen peoples and planets in such numbers that they lose meaning even in imagination. Ohhh, the landscapes I have passed. The calligraphy of alien roads glimpsed from space and imprinted upon my innermost sight. The eroded sculpture of canyons and cliffs and galaxies has imprinted upon me the certain knowledge that I am a mote.”

“Not you, Lord. Certainly not you.”

“Less than a mote! I have seen people and their fruitless societies in such repetitive posturings that their nonsense fills me with boredom, do you hear?”

Over a year ago, on November 18th, Bryon started this thread with the following post:

boardadmin wrote:To back up what Brian and Kevin are writing about, here are some words from God Emperor of Dune which could help clarify the possibility of a more powerful entity and an alien presence:

"I have seen peoples and planets in such numbers that they lose meaning even in imagination. Ohhh, the landscapes I have passed. The calligraphy of alien roads glimpsed from space and imprinted upon my innermost sight. The eroded sculpture of canyons and cliffs and galaxies has imprinted upon me the certain knowledge that I am a mote."

Freakzilla refuted this post with a dictionary definition of "alien", saying the passage quoted must be taken in context; Freakzilla posted the entire exchange between Leto & Moneo, and ended his post with:

Freakzilla wrote:"Using this to back up aliens and goddesses is quite a stretch, IMO."

To which Byron responded:

boardadmin wrote:I don't think it's a stretch for one simple reason: Frank could've used any word other than "alien" to describe these other worlds, but he chose that one. Frank was nothing if not subtle in dropping hints. He could've said "inhabited" or "populated" but he chose "alien." The "mote" comment kind of shows that Leto understands his place in the wider universe. He's just a small
particle within its machinations (i.e., there are other, more powerful, forces out there ...and he knows it).

Later, this exchange:

Omphalos wrote:

boardadmin wrote:

Omphalos wrote:But it sounds to me that you are softening us up for an alien race to appear in Paul of Dune. Is that what you are doing Because I certainly don't recall them ever really going "there" to date.

I'm not softening you for anything.

Why bring it up now then, in the context of "what Brian and Kevin are writing about?" I dont recall them dealing with an alien presence before, so it only stands to reason that they will be writing about it in the new books. Am I missing something? That is what you said, isnt it?

Byron never responded to this. The thread then swerved into discussion of the Butlerian Jihad, until page 21, December 13th, 2008 :

Bel Moulay wrote:I saw someone mention a quote from Leto II about seeing distant roads and cities that were alien to him. Could it possibly be the organized city grids of the machine cities? I mean they would be alien to him considering it's impossible to store any ancestrial memories from machines for so many obvious reasons. What if the golden path was to strengthen mankind against it's ancient arch-nemesis who have been rapidly growing in the farthest reaches of the universe. Not only could Leto II wanted to strengthen the human race but also multiply their numbers for the ultimate battle ahead.

boardadmin wrote:Lots of fan speculation on that one. Some say it was "alien" to Leto II only, not
specifically an alien society (i.e., the machine society). Others say since Leto II was heavily prescient, not much could be hidden from him, so there is a high probability that this could be a machine city similar to what Brian and Kevin have written about.

Others say since Leto II was heavily prescient ....
From the text, it is clear that Leto was speaking from Other Memory; the Past then, and not the Future.

a high probability that this could be a machine city similar to what Brian and Kevin have written about...
How could a "machine city", if it is supposed to exist, be considered by Leto to be "alien" ? Leto's Other Memory extended well before the Butlerian Jihad; therefore (allowing for a "machine empire") Leto would have recongized these "cities", past or future, and not labelled them "alien".

The simplest and most obvious interpretation of "calligraphy of alien roads glimpsed from space" is foreign, exotic, unexplored or untravelled space, seen in the far distance and unreachable by Leto's ancestors.

Kevin may resolve all this in Leto of Dune however he pleases to fit into the story he has told thus far. He may tell us Children of Dune was actually written by Harq Al-ada and God-Emperor of Dune by Gaus Andaud, in the way Dune and Dune Messiah are actually the words of Irulan. However he chooses to reconcile his story with the original is his business, but there is no reason for fans to twist Frank Herbert's words or ideas into things they did not say or mean.

Over There >>» For Lovers of both the Classic Dune AND the Prequels » God Emperor of Dune (Let's Review) // just now

katee84 wrote:

arnoldo wrote:Considering that the Butlerian Jihad was defined as the following:

JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

Then it’s possible that preparations were implemented in the event that AI/”other intelligence” ever became a threat as indicated in the following passage:

They were undoubtedly sincere in subscribing to the argument
that nuclear weapons were a reserve held for one purpose: defense of humankind should a threatening "other intelligence" ever be encountered.
~CoD

Why do you find it so necessary to derail a topic ? Having read through this entire thread several times, I've noticed you have a habit of that. You added nothing to this discussion, being the misinterpretation of Leto's statement of "alien roads".

I am aware of the definition of the Butlerian Jihad you quoted.
I am aware of the Great Convention.

Are you intentionally trying to draw attention away from the topic at hand, or is it some kind of compulsion to post something, anything, even if it has no bearing on the discussion ? Are you hoping to draw me into some kind of pointless flame war, and divert this topic for another year and 21 pages ?