Amazon McDune Debate with top 500 reviewer

[SandChigger]

3 stars for CoD and only 2 for GEoD. Did we not see that coming?

It's obvious he's just baiting us now. No one's that fucking stupid.

[lotek]

If I want small talk, I can go to my local bar. When I read a novel, I expect to get a story, and only a story.

I'd like to know in what kind of bar you can find Leto II level small talk, 'cause I definitely want to have a drink there !
The drunkards at my local tell stories and only stories

[TheDukester]

Definitely baiting now. I should have seen it with the CoD "review."

[Hunchback Jack]

I don't think he's baiting. I don't even necessarily think he's stupid. He's just a guy who's been reading plot-driven action-type fiction up until now, and is reading Dune for the first time. He's struggling with it, and doesn't get it yet.

I had the same problem with the original series the first time through, I must admit. I read Dune and enjoyed it - lots of plot, intriguing characters, cool ideas, great world building - but bounced off DM the first time. It was just too dense with ideas, and the prose, while almost poetic in places, could also be damned impenetrable. I got through it the second time, but still felt it was heavy going. It wasn't until CoD that something clicked, and I read it voraciously. GEoD was astoundingly good, too, even the first time through. On rereads, DM became one of my favourites in the series. But not the first time through.

So I can understand where this guy is coming from. FH takes some work to get a handle on; KJA/BH expect the reader to do no work other than reading the words and turning the pages. This guy hasn't learned to read yet.

HBJ

[A Thing of Eternity]

I've always thought the opposite about FH, even his really "tough" books like Messiah and GEoD never seemed hard to me, I was able to read them for just their surface "action" layer very easily the first time through. I never found the depth he put into the books to get at all in the way of the action and adventure, I just plain missed a lot of the depth the first read.

I think FH was very gifted in being able to write books you could just read as almost-pulp if you wanted to, or take to very deep depths.

[Robspierre]

Fifty -four reviews and a 34% helpful rating. Damn. Someone isn't getting the message.

Rob

[SandRider]

I've said this before, but I was never and never have been a "fan" of science fiction novels, and am not widely read in the genre ...

I didn't and have never approached Frank's Dune from a "science fiction" viewpoint - I recognized it's surpassing that label the
first time thru, certainly after Messiah ...

so when HB Jack says :
"He's just a guy who's been reading plot-driven action-type fiction up until now, and is reading Dune for the first time. He's struggling with it, and doesn't get it yet."
I can understand that. (I still think this guy's denser than a lead jacket, tho ...)

and I have to keep reminding myself that many, if not most, people are coming to Frank's Dune after he's been dead awhile ... they are
young people, raised on a world of entertainment in books and films that are, in a large part, shaped by Frank ... and Arthur C. Clarke, &etc.-
a post George Lucas/StarWars fanbase ... they read and watch films for diversionary/escapist entertainment, and rarely study and understand
the historical aspects of the work ...

alot of kids who saw the Lord of the Rings movies and bought the books were more than disappointed - the books were long and boring,
hard to read and understand ... a few did more than read the back cover of the paperbacks, tho, and discovered the treasure of English
Literature that John Ronald actually was .... and thanks to Christopher's work, can study the development of a body of fiction that was
worked on and continually revised and rethought and expanded for nearly 70 years ... a wonderful resource for inspiration and a case-study
of a Real Writer ....

btw, my favorite story from the years of writing The Lord of the Rings now seems to be quite famous and oft-quoted ....

during a meeting of The Inklings in Oxford in the 1930s, it was Tolkien's turn to read from a draft manuscript; he began, and a few sentences
in, Hugo Dyson, stretched out on the sofa with tie untied & shoes off, holding a brandy glass in one hand and a large cigar in the other, moaned:
"Oh fuck, not another elf ...."

(the only source for this anecdote, btw, is Jack Lewis - who while a great friend and supporter of John Ronald, was also always very
jealous - not of Tolkien's publishing success, for surely Lewis outdid him there, and not for Tolkien's position at Oxford, for Jack himself knew
that the promotions and honors he did not receive that his friends and peers did were mostly (entirely) of his own making; and possibly
not for the quality of his writing compared to Tolkien - Jack seemed to realize and acknowledge the superior style, and at times was the
most gushing critic Tolkien ever had .... the jealousy seemed, to me, to stem from the realization that John Ronald's intellect was vastly
superior to his; and this alone would not have been too difficult to deal with, many people were smarter than Jack Lewis, and he knew it,
it was that Tolkien was so fucking nice about it ... constantly encouraging Lewis in all his pursuits, even when it was obvious to
everyone, including Jack, that he was in way over his head .... Jack Lewis had a reputation, well earned, of being rude and nasty, especially
when a little drunk, and no-one could even imagine Tolkien being a little drunk, much less rude & nasty; this, I think, stuck up under
Jack's saddle: that Tolkien didn't just appear to be a wonderful, caring human being with no ill-bone in his body - he really was
like that .... and while Jack could appear to be a nice person, and often wanted to be, he knew he wasn't and couldn't ...)


so .... yeah ....

if you grew up watching the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon on Saturday morning, and dive in to
Tolkien without knowing the context of what you're reading, you're going to be confused and disappointed ...

if you love the Star Wars:Clone Wars thing on Toon, or have read everything TheJacket's ever published,
Frank is just going to piss you off ...

[merkin muffley]

when HB Jack says :
"He's just a guy who's been reading plot-driven action-type fiction up until now, and is reading Dune for the first time. He's struggling with it, and doesn't get it yet."
I can understand that. (I still think this guy's denser than a lead jacket, tho ...)

I think it's probably true that this guy is used to reading and enjoying crap and is confused by FH, and that would be fine, except that now he's lecturing everybody about the rules of good writing.

To me, this guy is unbelievably pretentious, trying to use Strunk and White to prove Frank Herbert is a bad writer.

It's obnoxious. I would also argue that it's stupid.

[SandChigger]

Personally, I swear by Skunk & Shite.

I mean, at.

Oops... ended with a preposition!

[Sev]

Eclipso the Clown has got as far as 'Grunters,' and what do you know - 5 stars - didn't see that coming

Some lowlights of his 'review':

All of Brian & Kevin's Dune books that I've read are more interesting and are better written than three of Frank's Dune books: "Children of Dune," "God Emperor of Dune," and "Chapterhouse: Dune."

Though I withhold final judgment until I have finished the sequel, having read all six Dune books by Frank, I believe his "Dune 7" would NOT have been as good as Brian & Kevin's.

[TheDukester]

Oh, man, y'all have just got to read Eclipso's introduction to this latest review:

http://goo.gl/gxgyb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The executive summary: Not only are FH's Dune books rated too high and TheKJA's rated too low, but it's all a big conspiracy!

What a retard.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Troll. Sometimes the simple answer is the true one!

[TheDukester]

Oh, he's definitely trying to bait, no question about that.

Which makes it even funnier that it's not working. It seems like most everyone just stops by and clicks the "not helpful" button ... sending his reviewer rank ever closer to 8 million.

[Freakzilla]

I added my click.

[SandChigger]

You know what? He's a troll alright, but I think he may just be on our side.

Come on, the "reviews" are just TOO over-the-top. He's making fun of the more "intellectual" McDune supporters (in their own minds, at least) like David "Textwall Builder" James and Shawn "I gots one ball!" Speaksman. And showing how their position is just as untenable as the idiot fanboys posting one-line "reviews".

Nice!


(On a side note: none of my votes on comments or reviews seem to be going through anymore. )

[Shaitan]

Oh, man, y'all have just got to read Eclipso's introduction to this latest review:

http://goo.gl/gxgyb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The executive summary: Not only are FH's Dune books rated too high and TheKJA's rated too low, but it's all a big conspiracy!

What a retard.

This dude can't even spell "blah." It's four fucking letters....

[SandRider]

no - read his other shit - he got butthurt after we gang-raped him over in the fruitcake lady's parlor - wait, or was the pedophile
from Philadelphia ? fuck if I know, they all claim to be "science fiction writers" - anyway, no, he brought attention to himself when
he crawled out from under whatever rock it was you turned over, and we all came to see how ugly it was then discovered
he'd actually been writing these insane reviews since september or some shit ... then we gang-raped him some more, and he got
mad and ordered ALL the Dune books from Amazon, so he'd have a "verified amazon purchase" tag on his reviews and didn't read
any of them, and now he thinks he's on a one-man crusade and gonna bring us down .... like that restless knight asswipe .... and the other
dumb fucker who got into the KJASF looking for back-up and found ... well, Brian Conway and that other fucker, both of whom we
gang-raped across several internet forums and blahgs, and finally committed internet suicide ... this last review, fuck he hasn't
read that book; there is nothing in the review ABOUT the book - characters, plot, pew-pew action, nothing ...

no, he's a butthurt fucktard shitheel bitchass cumdrunk jackwagon talkin shit out the side of his neck,
and y'all have GOT to trace down an email or find another forum he posts on so I can tell him so
and not get my account kick-banned @goddamazon.com and have to buy another fucking used book from
the goodwill people just for the privilege of being able to tell dickheads like this they're stupid ...

[Sev]

And 'Sadworms' gets the obligatory 5 stars - shock.

Some lowlights:

Though I am sure you can find such comments on other sites, here at amazon.com I have noticed a group of vandals who condemn any Dune material not written by Frank Herbert. They fling foul mud on anyone who gives a five-star review to, or who praises, Dune books by Brian Herbert & Kevin J. Anderson...Brian & Kevin's prose is proficient, without the boring passages of irrelevant discourse found in Frank's Dune books. Brian & Kevin's pace is fast, their concepts are bright, their plot is involved and has surprises, and their finale is uplifting...At the end of my review of "Hunters of Dune," I said I would withhold final judgment on whether or not Frank's "Dune 7" would have been as good as Brian & Kevin's. I now make that judgment, which is this: Frank's "Dune 7" would have been worse...And having just read all the Dune books, not only do I know enough to tell you that Brian & Kevin's are worth your time, also I know enough to tell you that they are better than Frank's, except for the original one, "Dune." They are better because they do not have Frank's insertions of inappropriate, boring commentary.

My reply: "Like you, I've been reading SF and/or Fantasy since the age of 11, and one thing I do know is that you are a complete and utter MORON.

You say the McDune books are 'impressively thick' - well, so are you Eclipso.

Watch as your reviewer ranking circles ever downward around the toilet bowl like a stubborn turd, before being swept away into oblivion. Much like history will consign this book."

[SandChigger]

I just saw that and came here to post the link, in case you hadn't yet.

The bit about having memorized "Stink & Blight" was the last straw: I'm convinced it's someone (maybe even one of us?) taking the piss.

[SandChigger]

Has anyone been following The Addentures of Solipso, Prince of Purger? (I haven't.)

Here's a totally out-of-left-field post that popped up in a thread (A.I. will destroy us?) in the Amazon Science forum. I don't think the woman's a KJASF member, and she seems to have her head screwed on right regarding the theist-atheist stuff. ??? Maybe she's just got BAD taste in fiction? Anyway, here's what she wrote:

Actually, some science fiction writers have included humor in the alien psyche-- with negative consequences for humans. Humor generally comes at someone's expense, so we're a bit uncomfortable with humorous aliens and AIs. When Brian Herbert wrote a prequel trilogy to his father's Dune series, he included an AI that liked to make jokes. Brian Herbert also (with a co-writer) completed Frank Herbert's Dune series. By the end of it, the robot Erasmus had come to appreciate human empathy, compassion, and humor. The Erasmus AI learned these things after engaging in thousands of years of curiousity driven atrocities against humans. Erasmus had made a bet with the AI overlord Omnius, that Erasmus could raise a human child to be just as analytical as an AI. In the process, he taught a human perfect logic, while developing a parental bond.

[Unfront]

I just went through and down voted all of his reviews. This guy seems to five star everything. This guy is just happy that he completed a book and has no real critism for it. F!....oh but that's right, he will critisize Frank Herbert.

[Serkanner]

I just went through and down voted all of his reviews. This guy seems to five star everything. This guy is just happy that he completed a book and has no real critism for it. F!....oh but that's right, he will critisize Frank Herbert.

You just down voted all his reviews without reading them? Does that make you any better than a two pence hack writer? Just asking.

[Unfront]

Let's not get too excited here. First off, not aIl fo them, (that was an overstatment), what I should have said was all the ones that are not helpful (which there are a lot of). They just summarize the story and cap it off with a five star rating. And yes, I did read them!!! It's easy. Just click on his link and there they are! Lets not jump to conclusions here.

[Serkanner]

Let's not get too excited here. First off, not aIl fo them, (that was an overstatment), what I should have said was all the ones that are not helpful (which there are a lot of). They just summarize the story and cap it off with a five star rating. And yes, I did read them!!! It's easy. Just click on his link and there they are! Lets not jump to conclusions here.

That is why I asked ... did you jump to any conclusions?

[Unfront]

Only to the conclusion that if Mr. eclipso is serious about any BH/KJA novel being superior to any of the originals, then he has self identified as a jack ass.