Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Read Heretics of Dune again. Not only is OM INTRUSIVE, it can be searched out. Odrade finding Leto's spice hoard at Seitch Tabr for example.

Freakzilla wrote:Read Heretics of Dune again. Not only is OM INTRUSIVE, it can be searched out. Odrade finding Leto's spice hoard at Seitch Tabr for example.

Yes, I recall that throughout it was intrusive at times, as individual personas in OM would try and push forward data that they thought was important, as well as RMs being able to search OM. RMs, for fear of losing themselves to abomination had to maintain a tight control on the “background noise” of the advice coming from so many sources at once.

I recall seeing some reference to this in HoD or Chapterhouse, but would be hard pressed to find it ATM.

Are you aware of any OM reference document that lists all of the passages that FH wrote on the subject? If not, I may have to create one.

redbugpest wrote:Are you aware of any OM reference document that lists all of the passages that FH wrote on the subject? If not, I may have to create one.

No but that is an excellent idea!

Freakzilla wrote:

redbugpest wrote:Are you aware of any OM reference document that lists all of the passages that FH wrote on the subject? If not, I may have to create one.

No but that is an excellent idea!

Thanks.

I am going to try and track down some PDF copies of the original 6 books to build one from. It will be a good way for me to really review OM.

this feels like a red-herring.

if you were answering all in inconsistency threads, or giving us more
justifiable reasons why you aren't retarded for reading, enjoying
& promoting Keith's bullshit, I'd let it slide.

surely you need more help understanding some of the basic concepts of Frank's Dune,
so I'm all for you asking questions & so forth ...

but this discussion is kinda .... pointless.

and off-topic for the thread - maybe this entire part of the conversation
should be moved to "I don't get it "

seems like navel-gazing while ignoring the real topics ...

redbugpest wrote:Even Leto, who by GEoD did have such unrestricted access, had to assimilate and organize these memories within him (see quote). I find it difficult to believe that RMs had this same level of recall.

Page 291 Children of Dune
Leto thinking to himself:

“The total recall of all those lives within him was of no use at all until he could organize the data and remember it at will.”

Data is not the same thing as memory.

Blatant Evasion: classic tactic.

Admittedly OM is a good point to argue over and most of us could do with a refresher, but rather than just trying to pull quotes out of context, maybe you'd be better off actually reading the books again. Hell, get an extra set off ebay and make an annotated copy for future reference.

redbugpest wrote:
“The total recall of all those lives within him was of no use at all until he could organize the data and remember it at will.”

I just want to emphasize "at will". Makes it a bit easier to grasp perhaps.

There are now here shown a number of examples of evidence IN THE TEXT by Frank about the level of detail of OM. How much evidence IN THE TEXT do you need before you are convinced Conway?

redbugpest wrote:I recall seeing some reference to this in HoD or Chapterhouse, but would be hard pressed to find it ATM.

Yes, especially since you don't have your copy of Heretics. Gotten it back yet?

IIRC, this thread was not for discussion, but was to form a "concordance" (compilation) of inconsistencies.

I really don't see where this OM discussion is going, either.

Serkanner wrote:

redbugpest wrote:
“The total recall of all those lives within him was of no use at all until he could organize the data and remember it at will.”

I just want to emphasize "at will". Makes it a bit easier to grasp perhaps.

There are now here shown a number of examples of evidence IN THE TEXT by Frank about the level of detail of OM. How much evidence IN THE TEXT do you need before you are convinced Conway?

That seemed to be unique to Leto (as far as I have seen so far). I am not expressing doubt about the detail that is out there. I am talking about the ability to get to any particular nugget of memory at will.

At any rate, I have my searchable copies, and am building my OM reference, so more later.

Didn't this OM discussion get started over whether or not Jessica would have known and it would have been important enough for FH to mention if the RM Gaius Helen Mohaim was her mother. Cos even if the memory is not demanding, and Jessica had to go searching it, it seems obvious that her mother is going to be first in line. In any case she'd know who her mother was at the time she first gets OM.

Also this shows a point where KJA/BH books borrow from the DE. It first suggested that RM Gaius Helen Mohaim was probably Lady Jessica's biological mother, but seeing as the DE is admittedly scattering era "in universe propaganda" I take it as just that, a scattering era ideal. The same as when it says Paul was probably really a fremen who took the Atreides name.

Anyhow, if RM Gaius Helen Mohaim where Jessica's mother, Frank'd have said so. So it is an inconsistency that the KJA/BH books have propagated "because it's cool".

Apjak wrote:Didn't this OM discussion get started over whether or not Jessica would have known and it would have been important enough for FH to mention if the RM Gaius Helen Mohaim was her mother. Cos even if the memory is not demanding, and Jessica had to go searching it, it seems obvious that her mother is going to be first in line. In any case she'd know who her mother was at the time she first gets OM.

It's that argument and others. From what I am reading, I would argue that she still might not because RM Mohiam's Ego in OM may be withholding it, and Jessica probably wouldn't care, since that is part of the BG conditioning.

redbugpest wrote:

Apjak wrote:Didn't this OM discussion get started over whether or not Jessica would have known and it would have been important enough for FH to mention if the RM Gaius Helen Mohaim was her mother. Cos even if the memory is not demanding, and Jessica had to go searching it, it seems obvious that her mother is going to be first in line. In any case she'd know who her mother was at the time she first gets OM.

It's that argument and others. From what I am reading, I would argue that she still might not because RM Mohiam's Ego in OM may be withholding it, and Jessica probably wouldn't care, since that is part of the BG conditioning.

Ego personalities aren't people. They're simply the person turning their memories into personifications of the people they represent to avoid possession, since pretending they're people rather than memories disconnects them from it.

You're right that Jessica may not have cared, but her OM of her birth-mother couldn't "withhold" that information unless Jessica herself didn't want to know and projected that want into the ego personality.

(Unless I'm wrong, but that's how I always saw it)

FH more than once refers to the OM personas as links of sausages, each one an ancestral persona. Mohaims would have been the first link. Odrade knew who her father was through her mother's persona.

I don't know how many other ways we can say it...

Apjak wrote: So it is an inconsistency that the KJA/BH books have propagated "because it's cool".

I really love this one Is it our Preek Argument #19 or #20 ??!!

If only Gurney were gay in KJA/BH books. Yes!! Unlike Duncan, Gurney was never seen with Ladies, and it would be cool (and politically correct.... like having some black and latinos caracters regarding to the quotas... ).

maybe that's the big reveal in the next one about Irulan.

why there was no hot sex scene between Gurney & Jessica.

Jessica's a beard ...

Leto wrote:

Apjak wrote: So it is an inconsistency that the KJA/BH books have propagated "because it's cool".

I really love this one Is it our Preek Argument #19 or #20 ??!!

If only Gurney were gay in KJA/BH books. Yes!! Unlike Duncan, Gurney was never seen with Ladies, and it would be cool (and politically correct.... like having some black and latinos caracters regarding to the quotas... ).

In it Gurney will be revealed to be Gay and Black, and Duncan Idaho will be a hot latin lover originally born Duncano Frederico Julio Juan Pedro Lopez Idaho. And the stroy of why he changed it will be revealed in the sequel to SoD: Duncan Donuts of Dune a harlequin romance.

I've always pictured Duncan as the black guy.

It does describe Duncan with curly black hair, but Gurney and Paul share that Jim/Huckleberry Finn kinda relationship. Plus Gurney only talks about Love Play with Paul in a training session. If gurney's gay that makes Jessica go all "Fag-Hag" for Gurney after Leto dies.

...This is going to far in my mind...

TheDukester wrote:

Is that Chris Tucker?

Freakzilla wrote:I've always pictured Duncan as the black guy.

I always pictured him has being from some Sicilian root.

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I've always pictured Duncan as the black guy.

I always pictured him has being from some Sicilian root.

You're a cantelope.

[YouTube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqccyUpnZwA[/YouTube]