Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Organized religion destroys who we are or who we can be by inhibiting our actions and decisions out of fear of an intangible parent-figure who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says "No, no!"

...

Do you know what makes a human being decent?

Fear.

~Dogma

SwordMaster wrote:Im sorry dude but you do not really know your Jebus!

The whole last half "Strict moral code involving complex system of punishments and rewards for various actions." is not Jesus, that is the church making themself somehow important when Jesus said "you do not need the help of church or priest to connect to god"

Most people confuss the church with Jesus message. The same with Buddha, Mohammed, even Moses.

I'm not confused at all. Maybe you haven't actually read the Bible(only real source of the Jesus myth), but he was a vengeful bastard who had really strict rules, or you didn't get to come with him to heaven.

Matthew 10. Read it lately? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... &version=9;
Particularly...

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Yeah, Jesus was SUCH a nice guy.

Trust me, you're goin to hell...

Jesus gets tough on the old law:

See it enacted with Legos: http://www.thebricktestament.com//the_g ... 05_01.html

Matthew
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Talking of fulfilling the law and saying

Ye have heard that it hath been said

is what I was mentioning awhile back; that Jesus replaced the Law with principles because people miss the point of laws. You see the same thing today, when people do what is morally wrong but get away with it on a technicality or drag out proceedings in court etc until it is too late.

An example I like is the one about loving your enemies because loving those who love you requires no effort, that will occur naturally. But to love your enemies as fellow human beings is a more penetrating insight into human nature. There will always be someone you dislike so, Jesus informs us that we should not actively (or possibly by our inactivity) seek their injury. You see the difference between laws and principles?

Laws place the responsiblity for doing right in the hands of an abstract document that people can find ways to twist. Jesus places the responsibilty for doing right in our hands, in our conscience.

Wanting to do right will always give better results than being forced to do right. People forced into doing right with no understanding of why they should do it will attempt to do as little as possible just to fulfil the obvious obligations. They are unlikely to use their initiative and can just excuse themselves with "i wasn't told to do that."

`

Whoa! Someone didn't take their soma today...

`

No problem.

If we didn't preach about the Bible we would be hypocrites wouldn't we?

(What is soma?)

SadisticCynic wrote:No problem.

If we didn't preach about the Bible we would be hypocrites wouldn't we?

(What is soma?)

Soma is a relaxant in Dune.

I dont mind the preaching, just get a bit pissed when they show at my door. I know where your church is, if i wanted to hear yall, I would go there on Sunday.

SwordMaster wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:
(What is soma?)

Soma is a relaxant in Dune.

No, you're thinking of Semuta.

Soma is from Brave New World:

All members of society are conditioned in childhood to hold the values that the World State idealizes. Constant consumption is the bedrock of stability for the World State. Everyone is encouraged to consume the ubiquitous drug, soma, which is probably a historical allusion to a mythical drink of the ancient Aryans. Soma is a hallucinogen that takes users on enjoyable, hangover-free "vacations".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(Brave_New_World)

Freakzilla wrote:

SwordMaster wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:
(What is soma?)

Soma is a relaxant in Dune.

No, you're thinking of Semuta.

Soma is from Brave New World:

All members of society are conditioned in childhood to hold the values that the World State idealizes. Constant consumption is the bedrock of stability for the World State. Everyone is encouraged to consume the ubiquitous drug, soma, which is probably a historical allusion to a mythical drink of the ancient Aryans. Soma is a hallucinogen that takes users on enjoyable, hangover-free "vacations".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(Brave_New_World)

I was also thinking of Semuta...

It's a good day : I learned about a new drug...

SadisticCynic wrote:Talking of fulfilling the law and saying

Ye have heard that it hath been said

is what I was mentioning awhile back; that Jesus replaced the Law with principles because people miss the point of laws. You see the same thing today, when people do what is morally wrong but get away with it on a technicality or drag out proceedings in court etc until it is too late.

An example I like is the one about loving your enemies because loving those who love you requires no effort, that will occur naturally. But to love your enemies as fellow human beings is a more penetrating insight into human nature. There will always be someone you dislike so, Jesus informs us that we should not actively (or possibly by our inactivity) seek their injury. You see the difference between laws and principles?

Laws place the responsiblity for doing right in the hands of an abstract document that people can find ways to twist. Jesus places the responsibilty for doing right in our hands, in our conscience.

Wanting to do right will always give better results than being forced to do right. People forced into doing right with no understanding of why they should do it will attempt to do as little as possible just to fulfil the obvious obligations. They are unlikely to use their initiative and can just excuse themselves with "i wasn't told to do that."

Right, because people didn't have principles before Jesus.

Despite the fact that virtually every statement of worth he made was taken either from the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) or mirrored the words of the Jewish sages (i.e. Hillel), he is hailed as an innovator and reformer. As the saying goes

As far as loving your neighbor (which is a poor translation left as is) being easy, often times they are the most difficult to love. On a daily basis people treat complete strangers better than they treat their loved ones. However, the mitzvah to love your neighbor in the Torah is specifically addressed to and concerning "the members of your people" of the Bnei Yisrael, whether native born or convert. It means you have obligations toward your family, toward your very close ones. But again, it is commanded to the Bnei Yisrael concerning the Bnei Yisrael. It is not a general command to love all people. The general word for neighbor is not used in Leviticus 18:19. And as far as enemies go, you are certainly free to love your enemies, but it does not make one a good or better person to do so (or claim to do so).

The respect and treatment obligatory to all people is all covered in the Torah long before Vayyikra (Leviticus) in B'réshit (Genesis). What the passages in Leviticus are regarding are the laws of the Bnei Yisrael, whether one is living inside or outside of the land of Israel (some laws only pertain in the land, in certain circumstances, ie. while the Temple is standing, or only pertain to Kohanim, or to M'lachim). The Torah is the instruction manual for the Bnei Yisrael, a nation. For the Jewish people, who accepted the Torah and the obligations that go along with it upon themselves. Nobody did it for them, and nobody can come and break their agreement for them. It is an agreement we made, and an agreement we've clung to for 3,500 years.

By all means, take joy in your beliefs and such, but by denigrating the Torah and its instructions to promote them?

I apologise if some of what I said seemed insulting; I assure you it was not meant to be so (looking back at that post maybe I was a little heavy-handed).

I do not wish to denigrate the Torah. As I see it, they are the first five books of the Bible and are just as important as the others in the Bible.

Purge wrote:By all means, take joy in your beliefs and such, but by denigrating the Torah and its instructions to promote them?

No-one's denigrating the Torah.

No-one's denigrating the Torah.

The following statements denigrated both the Torah and the Jews who observe it. I understand he wasn't being intentionally malicious, and I never accused him of such.

that Jesus replaced the Law with principles because people miss the point of laws.

An example I like is the one about loving your enemies because loving those who love you requires no effort, that will occur naturally. But to love your enemies as fellow human beings is a more penetrating insight into human nature. There will always be someone you dislike so, Jesus informs us that we should not actively (or possibly by our inactivity) seek their injury. You see the difference between laws and principles?

Laws place the responsiblity for doing right in the hands of an abstract document that people can find ways to twist.

Wanting to do right will always give better results than being forced to do right. People forced into doing right with no understanding of why they should do it will attempt to do as little as possible just to fulfil the obvious obligations. They are unlikely to use their initiative and can just excuse themselves with "i wasn't told to do that."

In any case, this obviously is not followed exactly anymore as the Law no longer applies - Jesus replaced the Law with something better: principles. The idea of the Law was to instill values in people until the Messiah came, which people ignored, focusing on technicalities instead. Now the principles are:

The mitzvot (which, although typically translated as "law(s)" is more along the lines of "connection", as the fulfilling of a mitzvah strengthens the connection between that person and God) in the Torah were given to and agreed upon by the Bnei Yisraél (Children of Israel/Jews), and not as a temporary thing to eventually be replaced by a messiah or something else. The Torah stresses both the fact that the mitzvot are neither too hard nor far off (Deut. 30:11-14), and that they are eternal, and cannot be diminished (Deut. 4:2).

The eternality of the Torah and the mitzvot is stressed over and over in the Torah:

Leviticus 26:44 makes clear that the covenant will never be broken.

Genesis 17:7, 13, and 19 stress that the mitzvah of b'rit milah and the covenant between God and Avraham (and Yitzhaq and further Jacob and his offspring) are eternal.

Numbers 15:14 speaks of these statutes being forever.

Exodus 31:16 stresses that the mitzvot regarding Shabbat are eternal, an eternal covenant.

Deuteronomy 11:1 stresses that the mitzvot, statutes, ordinances, etc. are forever, always, all our days.

Numbers 15:23, Exodus 12:17, Deuteronomy 12:32, do this, and in the 'Nach (Prophets/Writings) it is stressed in 1 Chronicles 16:14-17, Ecclesiastics 3:14, Isaiah 40:18, 2 Kings 17:37, Psalms 111.

The prophets constantly speak of the Torah and mitzvot being fully in effect in the future just as in their time. A few examples are Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 37:24, and Isaiah 2:2.

I understand that SC was not intentionally denigrating the Torah. I am not accusing him of that nor holding it against him, because I know it is unintentional. My point is that the Torah and Torah observance may be a relic in a museum to some people, but it is reality to the portion of Torah observant Jews in the world, and has never ceased to be for 3,500 years. The Torah and mitzvot are not a burden to us, nor are they old rags.

I don't necessarily mean to get into a debate about it, because I respect SC's right to believe and worship what he wants to. It is not for me to say. But I do take issue with the nonchalance some people show in discarding the Torah, and that is why I commented originally. If Jesus does it for someone, good for you. But I need not denigrate Jesus to be a perfectly happy observant Jew, and Christians should not need to denigrate the Torah or laws within it - which have nothing to do with them - to promote Jesus. Or perhaps it is necessary, as it hinges on stressing that the laws (which Jews still observe as our Torah tells us) are obsolete.

The bottom line is that the Torah was never given to or accepted by the whole world, it was accepted by the Children of Jacob. These obligations are not obligations which the entire world has to be saved from, because they are obligations they never had.

It would be somewhat akin to the notion of saving your son from the consequences of breaking military laws when they are not even in the military. For the most part the people who join the US military do so by choice. There is currently no draft. They accept certain obligations upon themselves that the average American does not have. That is what they sign up for willingly and knowingly. But someone who is not in the military is not going to be punished for breaking laws (whatever they may be) that apply only to people in the military, who agreed to follow a further set of laws than the average American has, which go along with them entering into their particular branch of the military.

Jews have them (Torah and mitzvot), and we accepted them willingly, and Torah observant Jews accept them willingly in every generation. Torah means instruction (not law), and the Torah is the instruction manual for a Jew. We don't want or need to be saved from the Torah and mitzvot, and non-Jews have no obligation to observe them in the first place.

I apologize for the rant, but the point is that we are a living thriving thing. The Torah is not the old anything for us. So while I don't expect him to stop promoting Jesus and his belief in him, I thought it was at least worth pointing out that while he may have certain beliefs about certain things, Jews as a whole have never ceased reading, studying, and practicing the instructions in the Torah. The Torah is not merely laws without principles, nor is responsibility placed on an "abstract document." The responsibility is with each individual person and the nation itself (which is spoken of and viewed as if it were one person - i.e. Israel/Jacob/etc).

Again I want to stress that I mean no disrespect to the Torah as it is indeed Holy Scripture.

Anyway, I do recognise that people did have principles back then (as many do now). I sometimes hear Christians make the claim that the Torah (or indeed the Old Testament as many call it) is outdated or whatever. This would be incorrect as the whole of the Hebrew Scripture is vital to an understanding of Jehovah and the outworking of his purpose. I was generally underlining an interesting section of human tendancy to remove responsibility from themselves which applies to all mankind (this is somewhat due to my misanthropic view of humanity). I was not trying to somehow implicate the Jews as being all bad or something silly like that.

In any case, I was indeed being a little rough in my treatment of the subject. 'Abstract' being a fine example of that. When I read the first five books of the Bible they seem some of the best laws (instructions) ever had by mankind. This I believe is due to their inspired status. I was referring in general to laws of mankind, twisted and tangled as they are - so much so that the average individual requires a lawyer to defend himself in court!

And finally, I thank you for your enlightening comments. (I'll get a chance to look up the Scriptures later.)

Wow, you're a wordy fella.

Saying it's good to have principles behind laws is not denigrating anything, intentionally or otherwise.

I think I unintentionally suggested that Jews have no principles (or that the Torah implies lack of principles), which is what he was pointing out...
A mistake on my part, for when a God of principles gives instruction he obviously wants His people to have those same principles...

Good stuff, SadisticCynic. I know you meant no insult, and were being genuine.

SadisticCynic wrote:I think I unintentionally suggested that Jews have no principles (or that the Torah implies lack of principles), which is what he was pointing out...
A mistake on my part, for when a God of principles gives instruction he obviously wants His people to have those same principles...

Ah. Well, I imagine the idea that you've written something saying that the Jews or the Torah lack principles is more interpretation than inference, but whatever

Hey Purge I was having another think about this and I recalled something I'd read awhile back about the Tenth Commandment, about not coveting basically what is not yours. This was apparently unique because it is cannot be enforced by man. Definitely a sign of principles I think.

Wish I'd thought of that earlier...