Paul of Dune spoilers

[Ampoliros]

Don't forget the hexagonal slicer disks ala Children of Dune.

The scene they had to remake cause they sadly couldn't show Alia fighting a mek nekkid.

I guess its so future generations will read KJA, and watch CoD and say coo! KJA did that!

THEY DO GET IT, its called REWRITE THE PAST CAUSE 90% OF PEOPLE ARE IGNORANT FANBOYS whose mommies will always buy them a copy of No-Dune. (No-Dune, get it? like Nu-Dune and No-ship? cause they try to hide amongst real dune, but Teg can see them and blow them up. I'm so clever.)

[SandChigger]

For what it's worth and for anyone who might be interested, I've completed the initial draft of that TOC/chapter-by-chapter (snicker) synopsis of PoD on a user page over on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SandChigger/PoDToC

Feedback/corrections appreciated.

[TheDukester]

The footnotes are the best part.

[Rakis]

Fremen pool party...

It sounds so bad...I think you manage to explain the book in three words...

[SandRider]

(No-Dune, get it? like Nu-Dune and No-ship? cause they try to hide amongst real dune, but Teg can see them and blow them up. I'm so clever.)

Absolutely love it.
Will use it from now on.

[SandChigger]

I guess this could equally well go under Prequel inconsistencies, but will post it here for the moment.

Portrayal of Guildsmen and Tleilaxu in PoD

The men looked dignified in their gray uniforms, the sleeves of which displayed the Spacing Guild's analemma sigil of infinity. In single file from shortest to tallest, each of the men had slightly odd features, offset from the norm of humanity.

The short one at the front had an oversized head, the left side of which was covered with a barbed metal plate, and half a head of ragged orange hair flowed back as he walked. The second man was exceedingly thin with a narrow face that bore the scars of reconstruction, while the tallest one at the rear turned his metal eyes nervously in all directions.

Um...did Frank ever describe any of the non-Navigator Guildsmen as being "offset" in similar ways?

And seriously, what's with the "barbed metal plate" shit? Still hung up on the Borg, Kevin? And why the Tleilaxu eyes?

Pity we don't have a resident Navigator member here who could get righteously angry...the way Master B will get when he reads that

Count Hasimir Fenring had encountered many unusual races in his work for Shaddam IV, but the Bene Tleilax pushed the very definition of humanity. Through genetic manipulation, the ruling caste of Tleilaxu Masters had intentionally adopted strange physical characteristics—probative little eyes, sharp teeth, and a furtive way of moving about, as if constantly on the alert for predators. Other members of their race were taller and looked like ordinary people, but in their topsy-turvy society, the rodent-men were the highest of the Tleilaxu castes.

Frank Herbert didn't introduce gholas and the Tleilaxu until Dune Messiah. Anyone after this that reads the books for the first time in "Duniverse chronological" order will learn too much about the BT too soon. Because about the only thing about them they don't reveal is the fact that the tanks are women. (I'm pretty sure there's a reference to them as religious fanatics; will check again.)

With milky white skin and hair and a pointed white goatee, Master Ereboam was a starling albino in a race that was commonly gray-skinned and black-haired—an unsettling hereditary accident among genetic experts.

Sounds to me like more of the crap started in Hunters and Sandworms about the BT being fallible and error-prone.

Mastah B, what say you?

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

And seriously, what's with the "barbed metal plate" shit? Still hung up on the Borg, Kevin? And why the Tleilaxu eyes?

Are you watching Lynch's movie again, Mr. Anderson?

[TheDukester]

Are you watching Lynch's movie again, Mr. Anderson?

No kidding.

I'm beginning to really doubt that KJA has, in fact, ever read Dune. He's seen it, obviously ... and he's just the type of asshole to think that that means the same thing.

[loremaster]

I second the comment about the footnotes.

[Freakzilla]

Um...did Frank ever describe any of the non-Navigator Guildsmen as being "offset" in similar ways?

The only Guild Agents I recall are in the end of Dune and their only abnormal feature were the eyes of the Ibad. I think there may have been one or two in the last two books that looked normal.

[SandChigger]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

[Frybread]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

[Freakzilla]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

[SandChigger]

I'm not 100% convinced myself yet, btw, but if the Navigators involved really shared the goal of the conspirators, were really committed to the conspiracy, it seems the things we're told in DM would apply.

To wit, that the oracle protects those close to him and who share his goals.

(That's the whole reason Irulan has to "get off the fence" and commit herself one way or the other before leaving that initial meeting. If she's not with them, then Edric's influence might not protect her from Paul's vision.)

The ole "Leto and the spice hoard" (or maybe better, "Leto and future people with the Siona Gene") factor comes into play, too. Might not Paul be able to notice people and things disappearing from his vision and know something was up?

[Frybread]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

[Freakzilla]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

[Frybread]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

It makes me wonder if Kevin will "answer" this discrepency anytime soon?!?

[Freakzilla]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

It makes me wonder if Kevin will "answer" this discrepency anytime soon?!?

Hah! When's the last time they updated the FAQ page? There current mode of operation seems to be to retcon their own mistakes in the following book.

[Frybread]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

It makes me wonder if Kevin will "answer" this discrepency anytime soon?!?

Hah! When's the last time they updated the FAQ page? There current mode of operation seems to be to retcon their own mistakes in the following book.

Or Kevin blames his critics for not reading his work close enough!

[SandRider]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

It makes me wonder if Kevin will "answer" this discrepency anytime soon?!?

Hah! When's the last time they updated the FAQ page? There current mode of operation seems to be to retcon their own mistakes in the following book.

Or Kevin blames his critics for not reading his work close enough!

nothing to say here, really; just wanted to add to the quote ziggerthing ...

[Frybread]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

It makes me wonder if Kevin will "answer" this discrepency anytime soon?!?

Hah! When's the last time they updated the FAQ page? There current mode of operation seems to be to retcon their own mistakes in the following book.

Or Kevin blames his critics for not reading his work close enough!

nothing to say here, really; just wanted to add to the quote ziggerthing ...

Cool.

[SandRider]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

It makes me wonder if Kevin will "answer" this discrepency anytime soon?!?

Hah! When's the last time they updated the FAQ page? There current mode of operation seems to be to retcon their own mistakes in the following book.

Or Kevin blames his critics for not reading his work close enough!

nothing to say here, really; just wanted to add to the quote ziggerthing ...

Cool.

you're welcome.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Here's another question for you, Freak.

If the Guild is complicit in some plot and secretly transporting rebels and their ships in Heighliners, would the Navigators hide them from Paul?

In the book, when he's out tripping in the spice sands on his desert pilgrimage, Paul sees the Heighliners picking up the rebels and bringing them to a central staging area (over Thorvald's planet, IIRC) for the attack on Caladan.

Kinda wondered if that was strictly by the books or not....

In Dune, Paul is able to see the Navigators when he becomes aware of the fleet that is in orbit of Arrakis. But in DM and thereafter, Herbert has changed how prescience works to where oracles cannot see other oracles and others immediately around them.

I suppose KJA would just blame FH when called on this.

Paul may have seen the massed Armada of the Great Houses over Arrakis but I don't think he said he actually saw the navigators.

Thinking back on that scene I don't think he used claimed to use prescence for that.

I'd say SC is right, according to Edric in DM, Paul should not have been able to See the Navigators or those who they were helping.

I could have sworn Paul could see Guildsmen in addition to the Emperor and his posse while they orbited Arrakis before the Final Battle. I'll have to check -- maybe all he saw where the heighliners and knew that Shaddam was in one of them?

"You have seen the future, Paul," Jessica said. "Will you say what you've
seen?"
"Not the future," he said. "I've seen the Now." He forced himself to a
sitting position, waved Chani aside as she moved to help him. "The Space above
Arrakis is filled with the ships of the Guild."
Jessica trembled at the certainty in his voice.
"The Padishah Emperor himself is there," Paul said. He looked at the rock
ceiling of his cell. "With his favorite Truthsayer and five legions of
Sardaukar. The old Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is there with Thufir Hawat beside
him and seven ships jammed with every conscript he could muster. Every Great
House has its raiders above us . . . waiting."
Chani shook her head, unable to look away from Paul. His strangeness, the
flat tone of voice, the way he looked through her, filled her with awe.
Jessica tried to swallow in a dry throat, said: "For what are they waiting?"
Paul looked at her. "For the Guild's permission to land. The Guild will
strand on Arrakis any force that lands without permission."
"The Guild's protecting us?" Jessica asked.
"Protecting us! The Guild itself caused this by spreading tales about what
we do here and by reducing troop transport fares to a point where even the
poorest Houses are up there now waiting to loot us."

Edited to add that whether or not Paul could see Navigators or Guildsmen in "Dune," FH establishes in DM that oracles cannot "see" other oracles, which KJA appears to have forgetten or ignored in PoD.

Not suprisingly.

It makes me wonder if Kevin will "answer" this discrepency anytime soon?!?

Hah! When's the last time they updated the FAQ page? There current mode of operation seems to be to retcon their own mistakes in the following book.

Or Kevin blames his critics for not reading his work close enough!

nothing to say here, really; just wanted to add to the quote ziggerthing ...

Cool.

you're welcome.

seriously dude, stop

Shrinky!

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

I'll break that! (I like to end the parties =P )

I find Paul seeing "ships of the Guild" above him not a example that he can see another oracles.
Probably we can have two answer for that situation:

1. The ships are there, with so much people within, that the Navigator couldn't shield them all. In DM, it was only stated that Edric could protect people around him and committed with something related to his future, as a conspiracy or a business, per example.

2. "Ships of the Guild" didn't mean that each one has a Navigator, they could be small ones that got out of heighliner, per example again.

[Tleszer]

I'll break that! (I like to end the parties =P )

I find Paul seeing "ships of the Guild" above him not a example that he can see another oracles.
Probably we can have two answer for that situation:

1. The ships are there, with so much people within, that the Navigator couldn't shield them all. In DM, it was only stated that Edric could protect people around him and committed with something related to his future, as a conspiracy or a business, per example.

2. "Ships of the Guild" didn't mean that each one has a Navigator, they could be small ones that got out of heighliner, per example again.

I like those ideas. At this point no one can see the future because of the nexus being formed as these events unfold, so perhaps it would make more sense that Paul is merely using his superior mentat capabilities to see the "now" as opposed to it being part of a vision.