Defense of the New Books

[Tleszer]

Lame response.

You get what you give.

No loogies in the cooter was sheer genius. I defy you to tell my why it wasnt.

Sometimes you guys frighten me. Only sometimes

[SandChigger]

I was just thinking what I would do if I was in bed with a woman and she went down there and I heard her trying to hack up a loogie.

I think I'd be out of there...

Would you kiss her good-bye first?

[Freakzilla]

I was just thinking what I would do if I was in bed with a woman and she went down there and I heard her trying to hack up a loogie.

I think I'd be out of there...

Would you kiss her good-bye first?

NO. Cab fare, maybe.

[TheDukester]

There were more "Dune" fans at one measly Dayton book signing than avowed OHers total.

Using Simon-logic, then, I've determined that Paul of Dune is not only a horrible book, it's also completely irrelevant.

How do I know this? Because it's been out for less than two months and the "Paul of Dune" thread over at The Official Shithole has not had a single post since Thursday.

Not. One. Single. Post.

So, Simon ... where are all these hordes of nu-Dune fans hiding? Or are they scared of computers like Bri-Bri?

[Tleszer]

I like how more and more people are saying "Kevvy" and "Bri-Bri."

[Simon]

There were more "Dune" fans at one measly Dayton book signing than avowed OHers total.

Using Simon-logic, then, I've determined that Paul of Dune is not only a horrible book, it's also completely irrelevant.

How do I know this? Because it's been out for less than two months and the "Paul of Dune" thread over at The Official Shithole has not had a single post since Thursday.

Not. One. Single. Post.

So, Simon ... where are all these hordes of nu-Dune fans hiding? Or are they scared of computers like Bri-Bri?

While I've stated this theory 20 or 30 times easily, here we go again:
People who are happy with a purchase don't tend to say much. People who feel ripped off voice that discontent like a wailing banshee.

I admit it is only an idea and I have no hard facts to support it, but that is what I suspect to be the deal.

I've actually been in contact with some of the folks from Dayton and they seem like very down to earth people. From what I've learned from them (And this is hardly a case study or anything) they see that the new books aren't FH in scope, but are really die hard Dune fans and find the new stuff passable to great (depending on which ones you ask).

I suggested that some of them check out the various forums but most either aren't into this sort of thing or have been put off, and I quote, by "the vicious assholes" (Sounds like a punk band or something!:lol:).

So call that what you will. The great strength of your arguement blotting out their pathetic defense. Their small mindedness or not being real Dune fans. They are out there.

[TheDukester]

While I've stated this theory 20 or 30 times easily, here we go again: People who are happy with a purchase don't tend to say much. People who feel ripped off voice that discontent like a wailing banshee.

Lame. Anecdotal. Supported by zero evidence.

[DuneFishUK]

While I've stated this theory 20 or 30 times easily, here we go again: People who are happy with a purchase don't tend to say much. People who feel ripped off voice that discontent like a wailing banshee.

Lame. Anecdotal. Supported by zero evidence.

What about fans who post on the internet?

Despite how it might sometimes appear this is a pro-Dune forum.

[TheDukester]

I was mostly having a go at my boy Simon, twisting his own argument around to try and show him how ridiculous it is:

Simon-logic: If no one shows up to a signing in Middle-Of-Nowhere, Ohio, to throw tomatoes at Kevin J. Anderson, then that must mean the OH movement is dead.

Dukester-logic: If no one is making any new posts at the official Dune forums less than two months after a new book is released, then that must mean Paul of Dune is dead.

Both arguments are more laughable than credible. There's no real evidence to support either belief (although, for the record, I think it's a bit embarrassing that no one cares enough about this book to express any thoughts on it in the past four or five days).

Simon's gotten a lot of mileage out of that signing; I'm just trying, once again, to show him how the "logic" of his argument doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.

[Simon]

Huh? You guys keep bringing the signing up, not me.


(from edit) What I did say was that there were more people at the signing I went to then there are Herbertians on this board. That is all.
It is not slight or slander sir, merely numerical fact.

[TheDukester]

Ah, but what an infamous series of posts it was ... remember, this thread was actually split from another one. And now it's 22 frickin' pages long.

Relax, Simon. Have a Gummi-worm or two. I was just looking for a place to post my amazement that no one at Byron Land cares enough to post anything about KJA's most recent hiking effort. I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread over, and I felt it would tie into this one.

Oh, and I thought I could fire a shot or two over your bow. Let's not forget that part.

[Freakzilla]

Huh? You guys keep bringing the signing up, not me.


(from edit) What I did say was that there were more people at the signing I went to then there are Herbertians on this board. That is all.
It is not slight or slander sir, merely numerical fact.

There's a sucker born every minute.

[TheDukester]

I just paged back through this thread and stopped when I came to CL's sheep picture. I can't improve upon that.

viewtopic.php?t=904&start=0

[Lundse]

(from edit) What I did say was that there were more people at the signing I went to then there are Herbertians on this board. That is all.
It is not slight or slander sir, merely numerical fact.

While you are correct that there is no 'slight or slander', there is of course a reason you brought it up - you are painting us (OH'ers) as a minority, overly vocal because that is what disgruntled minorities often are.

This is a way of dismissing the critique, going hand in hand with the everpresent 'a lot of people like it, so it must be good'-argument.


Now, the solution here is very simple: Don't drag these ridiculous arguments in here, and do not accept it if some OH'er uses the argument that 'the crowd likes it, crap is rampant in our society, just see TV-show X; therefore, it must be bad'.
Both are wrong. Lets look at the arguments themselves, and we can all go to sleep believing the other is the minority/a herd of sheep.


Now, how about you explain to me how the KJA Skynet scenario fits with Leto II memories of the Jihad as caused by sociological and religious pressure boiling from resentment from humanity relegating its destiny to machines?

[Simon]

Oh, I'm relaxed.

Just feeling engaging today, nothing mean to it. In fact I actually agree with you in that one book signing's numbers signify nothing. I heard from another fella that the signing he went to had something like 3 people there.
He actually had time to sit and B/S with KJA.

[Simon]

While I've stated this theory 20 or 30 times easily, here we go again: People who are happy with a purchase don't tend to say much. People who feel ripped off voice that discontent like a wailing banshee.

Lame. Anecdotal. Supported by zero evidence.

I don't get this analysis of my statement, this isn't supported by zero evidence. Any retailer will tell you that the unhappy customer is far more vocal than the satisfied ones. It's common sense. Not "anecdotal".

[DuneFishUK]

I think it's a given that only a tiny proportion of Dune fans (nu and old) post online and, of that percentage, less post frequently. There will be prequel fans who don't post... but by the same argument there will be OH fans who don't post.

You do see posts and blog comments by people who have never registered on any Dune forum, but read the prequels and were quietly positive about them... but so many of them - the vast, vast majority finish with the qualifier "they're not great... but they're better than nothing"

People who are left uninspired are even more unlikely to participate than fans and haters. I reckon they are the bread-and-butter prequel fans.

[TheDukester]

Any retailer will tell you that the unhappy customer is far more vocal than the satisfied ones.

Are we at Sears or something?

We're not talking retail here, we're talking (for the most part) about various fan communities, which means we're pretty much in the great Land of Internet. And, no, there's no real evidence to support that dissent will outweigh approval on any given SF/F genre subject. It's a popular theory, but no one's ever produced a shred of evidence to support it.

There's plenty of fan communities, both official and unofficial (Star Wars, LotR, Firefly, Galactica, just to name a few) where supporters and detractors both weigh in on various subjects. Some communities will lean toward a more positive stance; others will be more filled with dissent and rancor. But it's wishful thinking to believe that only the "unhappy customer" (to use your analogy) is "vocal." It just ain't true.

[Simon]

(from edit) What I did say was that there were more people at the signing I went to then there are Herbertians on this board. That is all.
It is not slight or slander sir, merely numerical fact.

While you are correct that there is no 'slight or slander', there is of course a reason you brought it up - you are painting us (OH'ers) as a minority, overly vocal because that is what disgruntled minorities often are.

This is a way of dismissing the critique, going hand in hand with the everpresent 'a lot of people like it, so it must be good'-argument.


Now, the solution here is very simple: Don't drag these ridiculous arguments in here, and do not accept it if some OH'er uses the argument that 'the crowd likes it, crap is rampant in our society, just see TV-show X; therefore, it must be bad'.
Both are wrong. Lets look at the arguments themselves, and we can all go to sleep believing the other is the minority/a herd of sheep.


Now, how about you explain to me how the KJA Skynet scenario fits with Leto II memories of the Jihad as caused by sociological and religious pressure boiling from resentment from humanity relegating its destiny to machines?

I'm not trying to dismiss you guys. Far from it. Were I doing that I just wouldn't reply to your post. (I'll log this question story related question Lundse and definitely get to it once I've completed annotating the books, I just want my answer to be properly worded and thought out, for clarity of the defense.)

Speaking of clarity, let me sum up my opinion of the Orthodox Herbertian:

I think that 90% of you are some of the most serious FH fans on the face of the planet Earth, which is why most have my grudging (if not outright) respect. When on the topic of Frank Herbert's work you insight and opinions are almost always interesting to read. They have in fact been a real eye opener for me regarding the many possible interpretations of FH's story.

Also I think the label of OH is misleading. To the uninitiated you appear to be a group of the same mind, though after a year of talking with you guys I find this is hardly the case. The common thread is of course your unquestioned loves for classic Dune. But it seems there are many levels and branchings with in the group.

Some of you find the new stuff harmless and irrelevant (not worth note), others will fly into a rage at the drop of a hat in defense of FH's Dune, while others are just mean and like to play games, and then finally those who while totally hating the new books but don't feel the need to take the conversation to the gutter.

I've received several PMs and E-mails from OH members apologizing for the bad behavior of other members. I hold these folks in the highest regard. They made it totally clear that they cannot stand the new stuff but know that the debate is based on Dune and nothing personal.

I really think you guys should dispose of that label. It doesn't do your diverse views justice.

[Simon]

I think it's a given that only a tiny proportion of Dune fans (nu and old) post online and, of that percentage, less post frequently. There will be prequel fans who don't post... but by the same argument there will be OH fans who don't post.

To true. Another bit of retail common sense is "For every customer who complains, there are ten who don't".

[DuneFishUK]

I think it's a given that only a tiny proportion of Dune fans (nu and old) post online and, of that percentage, less post frequently. There will be prequel fans who don't post... but by the same argument there will be OH fans who don't post.

To true. Another bit of retail common sense is "For every customer who complains, there are ten who don't".

There are a lot more positive reviews on Amazon.com - what does that prove... erm

[Simon]

Any retailer will tell you that the unhappy customer is far more vocal than the satisfied ones.

Are we at Sears or something?

We're not talking retail here, we're talking (for the most part) about various fan communities, which means we're pretty much in the great Land of Internet. And, no, there's no real evidence to support that dissent will outweigh approval on any given SF/F genre subject. It's a popular theory, but no one's ever produced a shred of evidence to support it.

There's plenty of fan communities, both official and unofficial (Star Wars, LotR, Firefly, Galactica, just to name a few) where supporters and detractors both weigh in on various subjects. Some communities will lean toward a more positive stance; others will be more filled with dissent and rancor. But it's wishful thinking to believe that only the "unhappy customer" (to use your analogy) is "vocal." It just ain't true.

Ok,ok, you might be right in this. I can't say, I don't know "for sure", but I see your logic and I can't deny that happy customers/readers can be vocal as well (lord knows I won't shut up! )

[SimonH]

I think it's a given that only a tiny proportion of Dune fans (nu and old) post online and, of that percentage, less post frequently. There will be prequel fans who don't post... but by the same argument there will be OH fans who don't post.

To true. Another bit of retail common sense is "For every customer who complains, there are ten who don't".

regardless, it is quite telling that the DN forum is dead. The latest book is obviously just a throw-away read because it has not sparked any discussion.

Think about the multitude of websites, discussion forums sparked by interest in FH's novels. That was, by majority, a positive reaction to the material. It is interesting the difference in the reactions of fans to the different authors. One reaction expansive, one reaction shallow.

[TheDukester]

There are a lot more positive reviews on Amazon.com - what does that prove... erm

Damnit, you beat me to it!

Amazon's system is not good (I'll never argue that point), but it does serve up years and years worth of evidence that satisfied buyers certainly are vocal. Only the absolute worst of the worst falls below 3.5 stars at that place, and dissenting opinions are often quite ruthlessly shouted down (often with a review that begins, "Don't listen to [dissenter]; he's obviously a loon."

[Simon]

I think it's a given that only a tiny proportion of Dune fans (nu and old) post online and, of that percentage, less post frequently. There will be prequel fans who don't post... but by the same argument there will be OH fans who don't post.

To true. Another bit of retail common sense is "For every customer who complains, there are ten who don't".

regardless, it is quite telling that the DN forum is dead. The latest book is obviously just a throw-away read because it has not sparked any discussion.

Think about the multitude of websites, discussion forums sparked by interest in FH's novels. That was, by majority, a positive reaction to the material. It is interesting the difference in the reactions of fans to the different authors. One reaction expansive, one reaction shallow.

And you may be right. I really hope not, but the argument has a ring of truth. And it's not that you guys don't have some very convincing arguments, you do. I just can't deny that I've derived enjoyment from Brian and Kevin's books. For whatever reason (a reason I'm sure a majority of you would categorize as bad taste) I really liked the expansion stuff. Myself, I chalk this up to my love of visuals, which the new books are filled with. I like to visualize and the new books lend themselves to this.

(from edit) Also I don't think DN is dead so much as rebuilding. I post regularly as you all know, and after the "blaze of glory" exodus of many Herbetians it did slow down. But recently I've noticed a slow build of a new group of regulars. Some are very interesting people to talk with, others, not so much. But that's the story all over. One big plus: the insults and name calling are all but gone. Occasionally it happens but it certainly hasn't been the thread consuming problem it'd had been. (IMHO)