Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

From Chapter House: Dune

"Sheena did no look up when he found hr at the temporary flight-control board in the guard quarters. She was bent over the board, staring at it consternation. The projection above her showed they had emerged from foldspace. Idaho recognized none of the visible star patterns but he had expected that.
Sheena swiveled and looked at Garimi standing over her.
'We've los all data storage!'
Idaho tapped his tempel with a forefinger. 'No we haven't.'
"But it'll take years to revoer evene the essentials!" Sheena protested. 'What happened?'
'We're un unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe.' Idaho said. 'Isn't that what you wanted?' "

I am going to make a huge leap in logic and assume that not recognizing the starfields indicates that there were stars.

From Hunters of Dune:
"They were adrift. They were safe. They were lost.
An unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe."
.......

"According to the bridge's independant chronometers, they had been in this strange distorted otherwhere for years... though who could say how time flowed in another universe? "
.....
"Now he [Idaho] studied external images transmitted from sensors extended beyong the no-field. The view outside had not changed; twisted veils of nebula gas, inside-out streamers that would never condense into starts. Was this a young universe, not yet finished coalescing, or a univere so unspeakably ancient that all suns had burned out and been reduced to molecular ash"

Now to be fair, the possibility of foldspace travel via no-ships could be taking people to other universes is brought up in Chapter House. And it is in the beginning of hunters that they have spent 3 years in this weird void after Duncan got them there. Even if it had brought them to a different universe, this universe HAD STARS in it. I think it was the authors not picking up on what Frank meant, but a simple read through Chapter House would have eliminated this and few others I may post if not mentioned already.

I always understood the "unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe." as the no-ship being so far from the "known universe" they might as well be in a different one, and if you add the fact they have no data to identify their surroundings, I think that sentence is more from the no-ship's crew point of view than from an outsider's pow.

It would feel like a lazy cop-out to end up saying "hey, parallel universes, loose ends tied-up", like "someone" could say "skynet robot wars magic cyborg, loose ends tied-up", but that's my own... point of view

Other dimensions and such are a cool idea, but aliens are too and there are none in the Duniverse.

I you'll remember, Duncan's connection to Marty and Daniel's "net" was cut when he dumped the navigation partition of the no-ship's computer memory. I have always assumed that was so they couldn't be found by people in the Old Empire or The Scattering and that he folded space to a place so far away that no one there would know who they were.

lotek wrote:I always understood the "unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe." as the no-ship being so far from the "known universe" they might as well be in a different one, and if you add the fact they have no data to identify their surroundings, I think that sentence is more from the no-ship's crew point of view than from an outsider's pow.

It would feel like a lazy cop-out to end up saying "hey, parallel universes, loose ends tied-up", like "someone" could say "skynet robot wars magic cyborg, loose ends tied-up", but that's my own... point of view

Other dimensions and such are a cool idea, but aliens are too and there are none in the Duniverse.

Exactly. I think Keith and co. misunderstood this line and decided "weird starless" universe is cool.

Another contradiction in Hunters is that the text indicates that they have no idea how the HMs got started. This discovery of Fish Speakers and RMs in extremis was towards the end of Chapterhouse. Plus it mostly confirmed what the BG had figured out.

Freakzilla wrote:I you'll remember, Duncan's connection to Marty and Daniel's "net" was cut when he dumped the navigation partition of the no-ship's computer memory. I have always assumed that was so they couldn't be found by people in the Old Empire or The Scattering and that he folded space to a place so far away that no one there would know who they were.

Yeah good point, thanks.

Smiley wrote:

lotek wrote:I always understood the "unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe." as the no-ship being so far from the "known universe" they might as well be in a different one, and if you add the fact they have no data to identify their surroundings, I think that sentence is more from the no-ship's crew point of view than from an outsider's pow.

It would feel like a lazy cop-out to end up saying "hey, parallel universes, loose ends tied-up", like "someone" could say "skynet robot wars magic cyborg, loose ends tied-up", but that's my own... point of view

Other dimensions and such are a cool idea, but aliens are too and there are none in the Duniverse.

Exactly. I think Keith and co. misunderstood this line and decided "weird starless" universe is cool.

Another contradiction in Hunters is that the text indicates that they have no idea how the HMs got started. This discovery of Fish Speakers and RMs in extremis was towards the end of Chapterhouse. Plus it mostly confirmed what the BG had figured out.

They strike me as the crazy bible people that took the seven days bs seriously, or that would assume a thousand years was literal instead of just meaning "a damn lot".
Thankfully the preekels have faded in my memory, I think I went up to Sadworms before I gave up, I mean if I want to read utter crap I have internet, but it's pretty obvious they have no clue what they're talking about, which makes me think they might have been targeting the same kind of audience.

I don't think this was covered, but in Hunters of Dune suddenly the INM is unreliable and dangerous. GEoD describes it as simulating prescience of Navigator, it is used in Heretics and ChapterHouse just fine, but now they are unreliable. The New Sisterhood is now using the Guild for transport which they did not need for fleets of ships and decoys in previous books. Guild now knows where ChapterHouse is, which I am calling an inconsistancy since the BG are not that stupid considering HMs will just obliterate any planet they don't like as soon as they find it.
Also, better navigation machines come from the Scattering, specifically the Enemy... who I think does not trust them. weird.

Finally, was Tamalane working in Archives in Chapterhouse? I don't think she was. Also Bell is apparently not working in Archives at the beginning of the book.
I started this book to try and see why they were doing things and it is now painful.

dunaddict wrote: ↑10 Jul 2009 12:14 House Atreides

1. In this book It appears to be general knowledge that the Tleilaxu are religious fanatics. So how come it is such a major revelation for the Bene Gesserit in HERETICS OF DUNE and is not known to any character in the Chronicles before that?

   Shaddam in HOUSE ATREIDES wrote:"He didn't like to think of the gnomelike men; religious fanatics, the Bene Tleilax were intensely secretive and did not invite guests."

It is never said that it was a major revelation to the BG that the Tleilaxu were religious, only specifically that they were Sufi-Zensunnis.

Frank Herbert in Heretics of Dune wrote:Taraza sat back and reviewed what she had learned here. Waff’s reaction to that Zensunni probe had been
interesting. “A problem that cannot be resolved by rational means.” The words had produced a subtle effect on him.
He had seemed to rise out of some place within himself, a questioning look in his eyes. Gods preserve us all! Is Waff
a secret Zensunni?
No matter the dangers, this had to be explored. Odrade must be armed with every possible advantage on Rakis.
“Perhaps we have done all we can for now,” Taraza said. “There is time to complete our bargain. God alone in
His infinite mercy has given us infinite universes where anything may happen.” Waff clapped his hands once without thinking. “The gift of surprises is the greatest gift of all!” he said.
Not just Zensunni,Taraza thought. Sufi also. Sufi! She began to readjust her perspective on the Tleilaxu. How
long have they been holding this close to their breasts?

As you can see in the above quote, Taraza is not simply surprised because they are religious, but due to their particular belief structure. And the quote you give from McDune: House Anderson shows that it is commmon knowledge that they are religious fanatics - it does not show that their specific religion is, nor does any other part of the book.

I'm not trying to defend Keith and Bobo, but in this case, this doesn't seem like an actual inconsistency.

dunaddict wrote: ↑10 Jul 2009 12:14 House Atreides

One of the central plot points is the death of Leto's father, Duke Paulus. This happens before Jessica is born. However, in DUNE, Jessica displays what can only be first-hand experience of the Old Duke:

Jessica turned away, faced the painting of Leto's father. [...] She clenched her fists at her sides, glared at the painting. "Damn you! Damn you! Damn you!" she whispered.

Jessica spoke, shattering the moment. "Besides, Wellington, the Duke is really two men. One of them I love very much. He's charming, witty, considerate... tender--everything a woman could desire. But the other man is... cold, callous, demanding, selfish--as harsh and cruel as a winter wind. That's the man shaped by the father." Her face contorted. "If only that old man had died when my Duke was born!"

I found another likewise inconsistency concerning Gurney, who also seems to have first-hand experience of the Old Duke:

Frank Herbert in Dune wrote:A smile touched Paul’s mouth, but there was a hardness in the expression that reminded Gurney of the Old Duke,
Paul’s grandfather.

However, in KJA/BH's books, Paulus dies in House Atreides but Gurney does not come into Atreides service or even leave Giedi Prime until House Harkonnen, when he is long dead.