Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

TheDukester wrote:

Mandy wrote:When did the BG get the invisibility superpower?

Right after Kevvie read some Fantastic Four comics.

I think it's the best example so far that KJA is twisting Dune into Star Wars, turning the BG into Jedis with mind control...

"It's not this droid...er...BG you are looking for"

exactly. One of the best parts of Dune IMHO is that there is nothing in Dune that is impossible for human's to achieve in the real universe. some of the more interesting abilities, such as prescience and other memory might not work the same way, but they aren't unbelievable.

Invisible BG's, doing it to prank Harkonnens? seriously dude, quit writing. your 'creativity' kills brain cells. you limit the universe you are working in. you cannot comprehend infinity. your 'clever' witticisms impress only those who have never stood in the face of greatness. I will watch with pleasure as history forgets you.

Hah, that Margot/Fenring scene is written so...clinically. Besides, judging by how deeply immersed in his memories he is, they're not doing it right.

Ah the prankster BGs. I remember chuckling and shaking my head at that one.

Welcome Ghanima, is that Jackson Publick and Doc Hammer in your avatar?

Thanks!

Nope, it's Julian Barratt and Noel Fielding (from the comedy series The Mighty Boosh) and yes I know my geek stripes are showing now...

Ghanima Atreides wrote:Thanks!

Nope, it's Julian Barratt and Noel Fielding (from the comedy series The Mighty Boosh) and yes I know my geek stripes are showing now...

All hail the Boosh!!!!!

Ampoliros wrote:exactly. One of the best parts of Dune IMHO is that there is nothing in Dune that is impossible for human's to achieve in the real universe. some of the more interesting abilities, such as prescience and other memory might not work the same way, but they aren't unbelievable.

Invisible BG's, doing it to prank Harkonnens? seriously dude, quit writing. your 'creativity' kills brain cells. you limit the universe you are working in. you cannot comprehend infinity. your 'clever' witticisms impress only those who have never stood in the face of greatness. I will watch with pleasure as history forgets you.

Actually, I really hate to play the DA here (seriously, I really hate to)- but the invisible RM's via mass hypnosis is much more plausible in the real world than prescience or OM, both of which would require such a breach of physics as to pretty much be magic

I mean, you can never say that something is 100% impossible, but OM is pretty much on par with Santa actually being real (and immortal and has flying elk) and everyone just think's he's fake.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:exactly. One of the best parts of Dune IMHO is that there is nothing in Dune that is impossible for human's to achieve in the real universe. some of the more interesting abilities, such as prescience and other memory might not work the same way, but they aren't unbelievable.

Invisible BG's, doing it to prank Harkonnens? seriously dude, quit writing. your 'creativity' kills brain cells. you limit the universe you are working in. you cannot comprehend infinity. your 'clever' witticisms impress only those who have never stood in the face of greatness. I will watch with pleasure as history forgets you.

Actually, I really hate to play the DA here (seriously, I really hate to)- but the invisible RM's via mass hypnosis is much more plausible in the real world than prescience or OM, both of which would require such a breach of physics as to pretty much be magic

I mean, you can never say that something is 100% impossible, but OM is pretty much on par with Santa actually being real (and immortal and has flying elk) and everyone just think's he's fake.

I don't thinks so.

Paul's prescience seems clearly explained as a combination of OM, which I see as a data base for past human social activity, mentat ability, which provides the ability to project outcomes from limited data, and a consciousness expanding drug to boost it all. Is there one of you who hasn't experienced deja vu?

There is evidence of ancestral memory in the natural world. Maybe not to the extremem of total recall as in the pre-born, but I can see something like that being refined over the next twenty millenia.

A thing of Eternity- How so? First of all, the 'mass hypnosis" is described more like a 'mass spell". Mohiam whispers a reversed Litany of Fear into the Baron's ear and all of a sudden he and his men fall into a trance while the hall is filled with hundreds of invisible women. There is no believable explanation for this, other than the implication that the BGs are indeed 'witches'.

Plus the description is childish and shallow, lacking any depth or purpose besides portraying the BGs like a bunch of naughty scoolgirls with superpowers : Rustling like bats, hundreds of Sisters filled the dining hall, amused to watch the Baron's antics, dodging him as if it were a game of invisible tag. Some crouched under tables ; Jessica and Mohiam pressed against the wall.

Prescience the way Frank describes it is far more believable: it has a trigger, spice. It is the result of a long and intricate breeding program meant to enhance certain abilities through genetic selection and manipulation. The Duneiverse is based on the strength of the human mind as opposed to that of machines, and human kind has evolved since our times, which means what is impossible to us and might seem as likely in our universe as Santa being real, in the Duneiverse it is possible.

Paul saw all possible futures, which IMO jives with physics (quantum mechanics).

The prescience is the more believable of the two, and yes I totally agree FH did a great job making it believable. It would still require near-magical technology for US to do it. It's not so much the idea of predicting the future (which is maybe hypothetically possible) which is unlikely IMO - it's us ever developing technology to gather the data (to predict all futures you would need all data) and then do the math... not super likely. Not impossible perhaps, but not likely that we'd ever get the tech even close to what Paul can do in Dune or DM.

I’m just saying that mass-hypnosis was a bad example if we wanted to show FH being more realistic than KJABH. Their magical FTL rockets, or Norma, or conservation of mass defying super-worms would be better examples IMO. I didn't actually read the hypnosis passage (or any of the House books) so if that's how they portrayed it then I agree it's crap and pretty much described as magic.

OM - I know we've all talked about this one before, and there are some phenomena which resemble OM, but we know without a (reasonable) doubt that no individual memory is stored in DNA thus rendering OM not plausible. Maybe it was when FH wrote them book, I don't know. Maybe in the future we will be able to add a couple chromosomes which do just that and store memories for the next generations, but we will never be able to access memories from before such a time, because they just are not there.

I think you're limiting yourself in your thinking that OM is genetic.

Freakzilla wrote:I think you're limiting yourself in your thinking that OM is genetic.

True enough, but I think that's (genetics) definitely what FH had in mind (maybe less so by the time he got to Heretics though as we've all discussed Duncan's seemingly magical memories of some events). Any other explanation for OM is way too pseudo-science metaphysical spiritual craziness for my mind.

What did you have in mind for that?

A Thing of Eternity wrote:the invisible RM's via mass hypnosis is much more plausible in the real world than prescience or OM, both of which would require such a breach of physics as to pretty much be magic

A Thing of Eternity wrote:The prescience is the more believable of the two, and yes I totally agree FH did a great job making it believable.

GOTCHA! You contradict yourself which is an inconsistency, which is like KJA. Therefore, my dear friends, AToE is a flip-flopping hack! I say to you, AToE bin ein KJA!

Just Kidding. I humbly beg your forgiveness in suggesting you are in any way like KJA. I've been watching too many political commentaries recently and just had to draw the parallel.

Hypnotic Invisibility is even worse. To use a D&D reference, thieves can hide in shadows. Well some theives like to believe that this means they can move down an unlit unobstructed hallway with nigh perfect invisibility. the problem is most creatures who dwell in dungeons have infravision which allows them to see in pure darkness. There are no shadows in an unlit hall.

Pressing yourself against a wall, hiding under tables are actions which go against normality. They stand out. Hypnosis is about doing something with regular actions that hide your true intention, a mental slight of hand.

If you are in a room full of people, the ones who stand out are the ones hiding under tables and pressing themselves against the wall. The people calmly walking around and mingling, doing regular actions are not the first thing you notice. Ninjitsu uses alot of fluid motion to trick the eye, but for the most part it does not make the ninja invisible, it just gives him the initiative to move before your body recognizes where he is moving too. I've seen it done and its scary. Think Voice in a physical form.

I always assumed that the scene meant for the Baron and his lackeys to think there was no one in the room, they couldn't actually see any of the BG. That's true invisibility, not hypnosis. Someone of the Baron's mental capacity would not be fooled for very long.

Second, we agree that this action goes against the calm demeanor and mature attitude of the BG. They also would not display this ability so flagrantly and so pettily. If they really can turn invisible, Baron Harkonnen would spread this throughout the Imperium. Even as a rumor it would destroy much of what the BG had as far as credibility.

There are plenty of other ways to show the superiority of the BG, but this one whores itself out for 'cinematic' effect.

Lets get back to bashing how bullshit Marie is! I'm not letting that one go! I don't think she 'hypnotized' her parents into thinking she was invisible!

I might have an anger managment problem when it comes to KJA's super weapons. I can admit that.

Ampoliros wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:the invisible RM's via mass hypnosis is much more plausible in the real world than prescience or OM, both of which would require such a breach of physics as to pretty much be magic

A Thing of Eternity wrote:The prescience is the more believable of the two, and yes I totally agree FH did a great job making it believable.

GOTCHA! You contradict yourself which is an inconsistency, which is like KJA. Therefore, my dear friends, AToE is a flip-flopping hack! I say to you, AToE bin ein KJA!

Just Kidding. I humbly beg your forgiveness in suggesting you are in any way like KJA.

No worries! Actually, you misunderstand me, I was saying it's the more likely of the two - the "two" being Prescience and OM, not Prescience and Invisibility via hypnosis. So I actually didn't do any contradicting - but you are right about the following:

Hypnotic Invisibility is even worse. To use a D&D reference, thieves can hide in shadows. Well some theives like to believe that this means they can move down an unlit unobstructed hallway with nigh perfect invisibility. the problem is most creatures who dwell in dungeons have infravision which allows them to see in pure darkness. There are no shadows in an unlit hall.

Pressing yourself against a wall, hiding under tables are actions which go against normality. They stand out. Hypnosis is about doing something with regular actions that hide your true intention, a mental slight of hand.

If you are in a room full of people, the ones who stand out are the ones hiding under tables and pressing themselves against the wall. The people calmly walking around and mingling, doing regular actions are not the first thing you notice. Ninjitsu uses alot of fluid motion to trick the eye, but for the most part it does not make the ninja invisible, it just gives him the initiative to move before your body recognizes where he is moving too. I've seen it done and its scary. Think Voice in a physical form.

I always assumed that the scene meant for the Baron and his lackeys to think there was no one in the room, they couldn't actually see any of the BG. That's true invisibility, not hypnosis. Someone of the Baron's mental capacity would not be fooled for very long.

Second, we agree that this action goes against the calm demeanor and mature attitude of the BG. They also would not display this ability so flagrantly and so pettily. If they really can turn invisible, Baron Harkonnen would spread this throughout the Imperium. Even as a rumor it would destroy much of what the BG had as far as credibility.

There are plenty of other ways to show the superiority of the BG, but this one whores itself out for 'cinematic' effect.

When you lay it out like this I have to agree with you, the idea is pretty stupid.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I think you're limiting yourself in your thinking that OM is genetic.

True enough, but I think that's (genetics) definitely what FH had in mind (maybe less so by the time he got to Heretics though as we've all discussed Duncan's seemingly magical memories of some events). Any other explanation for OM is way too pseudo-science metaphysical spiritual craziness for my mind.

What did you have in mind for that?

Cellular or even telepathic. FH said it was stored in nerve cells, but I don't trust him to get his science totally right:

"Are you aware of how I know my father?" she asked.
"I have some idea."
"Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had
awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the
knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells -- and all this after
the death of her father.
~Dune Messiah

There is a topic on Other Memory in the Bene Gesserit forum.

Freakzilla wrote:Cellular or even telepathic.

Neither of which makes a lot of sense, really.

Cellular meaning what? In the cytoplasm? The mitochondria or other organelles outside the nucleus? If it's not in the DNA (and in the nucleus) then there's not many other places it could be.

(Mind you, I think that's where Leto II's "pearls of consciousness" in the new worms are, stored in some way in the cells of the sandtrout but not in their DNA. Why assume Leto was a genetic hybrid? All that gets you is worm-boy gholas. )

And telepathic? That might work for the memories of people living, but what about the dead (and LONG dead)? Telepathy occurs between living minds, no?

Nah, this is one of those major points of divergence between the Duniverse and the Real Universe and there's not much point in spending too much time on trying to make it work.

What FH had in mind for Duncan with his memories is an interesting question that will evidently remain forever unanswered.

SandChigger wrote:What FH had in mind for Duncan with his memories is an interesting question that will evidently remain forever unanswered.

We can only hope. We already know that the Two Men From Another Place want to write about the Sisterhood and the Mentat schools, and since Duncan is involved with both, as well as their Leto of Dune novel, its only a matter of time before they provide an awesome answer to this question in the most mind-blowing way that they can...

...a wizard did it!

Sorry to interrupt

Can anyone explain how House Moritanni was previously known as House Tantor?

What happened in the middle?

"This family was not always House Moritani. Once, we were named Tantor. After Salusa, though, every member of House Tantor was hunted down and killed. Every member the hunters could find, that is."

A shudder ran down Resser's spine. Now it began to make sense. "The Salusa Incident? Not the atomic attack that nearly wiped out House Corrino and devastated all of Salusa Secundus?"

"One and the same. We are the renegade family whose name was erased from the historical record."

Presumably there was a lot of screaming and yelling in the middle.

Yawn.

But don't worry. House Moritani is mentioned by Frank Herbert, but not the atomic attack on SS.

It never happened.

sounds kind of like Jacurutu being 'wiped out' but not completely.

Ampoliros wrote: I might have an anger managment problem when it comes to KJA's super weapons. I can admit that.

You need Jack Nicholson to move in with you

SandChigger wrote:

"This family was not always House Moritani. Once, we were named Tantor. After Salusa, though, every member of House Tantor was hunted down and killed. Every member the hunters could find, that is."

A shudder ran down Resser's spine. Now it began to make sense. "The Salusa Incident? Not the atomic attack that nearly wiped out House Corrino and devastated all of Salusa Secundus?"

"One and the same. We are the renegade family whose name was erased from the historical record."

Presumably there was a lot of screaming and yelling in the middle.

Yawn.

But don't worry. House Moritani is mentioned by Frank Herbert, but not the atomic attack on SS.

It never happened.

Jajaja, i found that explanation a little dificult to believe.
With RM's OM it could be too diicult to maintain that secret.
Also still hate how everyone must be related everyone in the new batch of books, it reminds me of SW

I'm still on page 40. It looks like this book is going to be the end of the road for me. We'll see how I feel next year (hopefully, I'll be finished with it by then), I'm sure I will snap out of it and get the next one.