Paul of Dune spoilers

[Secher Nbiw]

Yes. The fact that there was a BT KH was not important. What was important was that he killed himself rather than become the opposite of what he'd spent a lifetime becoming. It was purely an experiment to find a way to bring down Paul.

The real question is, if he killed himself, does that mean the experiment was a success or a failure?


What I don't understand is why it needs to be given a name. Why must every dangling plotline that leaves room for the reader to flesh out and explore on his own imagination, be explored by the writers and named?

I know the reason, money, of course, but it never really adds anything.

I would have preferred some spin off title dealing with Feyd Rautha's daughter and never have her come into contact with the characters from the original novels. Let the character flee and establish its own story, apart from the events and characters from the originals.

[Freakzilla]

Yes. The fact that there was a BT KH was not important. What was important was that he killed himself rather than become the opposite of what he'd spent a lifetime becoming. It was purely an experiment to find a way to bring down Paul.

The real question is, if he killed himself, does that mean the experiment was a success or a failure?

Well, if the point of the experiment was to find a way to dispose of Paul, the BG KH... I'd say it was a huge success.

The cabal expected to force Paul to abdicate and denounce his religion. They figured Paul would rather kill himself than do that.

[SandChigger]

As I mentioned earlier, evidently Count Fenring does something that results in Little Marie biting the big one.

Hey, btw, what happened to Farad'n father, Dalak? They have Wensicia killing him herself in this one. Dart pistol to the chest. "Don't worry, I'll tell the boy you died defending us." Anyone remember any allusions in the originals as to how he REALLY died or why?

There's a lovely splatter-filled wedding scene (the Archduke of Ecaz and some bint named Ilsea or something like that) with flower-pot launched flying sawblade disks (Frisbee's from Hell?) slicing and dicing the principals and guests. The Atreides are there, along with the Improbable Cyborg Rhomboy Vernibot, who smashed up the pots to prevent further Ginsu launches. Then a hologram of Baron(?) Moritani pops up and snarks at the survivors. Ye gods...RIVETed stuff. (And I don't mean just Rhombur. Did he really have artificial lungs as well? I must have forgotten that bit of stupidity. )

Ah...and a battle scene with Paul, disguised in the uniform of a fallen soldier, fighting unmarked beside his men. Unfortunately, he can't seem to remember what planet it is they are fighting on.

Some Grand Silliness called the ceremony of the Great Surrender in which all members of the Landsraad have to sent a representative on a ship whose holds are filled with water....

A statue of a sandworm in some plaza, dedicated to Muad'Dib's victories, with a name plate put on the base for every planets conquered...but there are still some empty spaces left for victories yet to come. If it really was an "Empire of a Million Worlds", then either that statue has one helluva enormous base or the nameplates are REEEEEEEALLY tiny.

Gawds, Byron, you were right...this IS the best shit they've done yet.

[Secher_Nbiw]

As I mentioned earlier, evidently Count Fenring does something that results in Little Marie biting the big one.

Hey, btw, what happened to Farad'n father, Dalak? They have Wensicia killing him herself in this one. Dart pistol to the chest. "Don't worry, I'll tell the boy you died defending us." Anyone remember any allusions in the originals as to how he REALLY died or why?

There's a lovely splatter-filled wedding scene (the Archduke of Ecaz and some bint named Ilsea or something like that) with flower-pot launched flying sawblade disks (Frisbee's from Hell?) slicing and dicing the principals and guests. The Atreides are there, along with the Improbable Cyborg Rhomboy Vernibot, who smashed up the pots to prevent further Ginsu launches. Then a hologram of Baron(?) Moritani pops up and snarks at the survivors. Ye gods...RIVETed stuff. (And I don't mean just Rhombur. Did he really have artificial lungs as well? I must have forgotten that bit of stupidity. )

Ah...and a battle scene with Paul, disguised in the uniform of a fallen soldier, fighting unmarked beside his men. Unfortunately, he can't seem to remember what planet it is they are fighting on.

Some Grand Silliness called the ceremony of the Great Surrender in which all members of the Landsraad have to sent a representative on a ship whose holds are filled with water....

A statue of a sandworm in some plaza, dedicated to Muad'Dib's victories, with a name plate put on the base for every planets conquered...but there are still some empty spaces left for victories yet to come. If it really was an "Empire of a Million Worlds", then either that statue has one helluva enormous base or the nameplates are REEEEEEEALLY tiny.

Gawds, Byron, you were right...this IS the best shit they've done yet.

just a shame we can't smoke it!

[Freakzilla]

Hey, btw, what happened to Farad'n father, Dalak?

This is the only reference to him I know of:

Wensicia found herself reminded of his dead father. Dalak had been like that
at times, very inward and complex, difficult to read. Dalak, she reminded
herself, had been related to Count Hasimir Fenring, and there'd been something
of the dandy and the fanatic in both of them. Would Farad'n follow in that path?
She began to regret having Tyek lead the lad into the Arrakeen religion. Who
knew where that might take him?

[Ampoliros]

Ah...and a battle scene with Paul, disguised in the uniform of a fallen soldier, fighting unmarked beside his men. Unfortunately, he can't seem to remember what planet it is they are fighting on.

Wow, how did I miss this thread this morning?!?!

Is this post Dune or pre-Dune? Cause either way it screws up.

[Freakzilla]

Ah...and a battle scene with Paul, disguised in the uniform of a fallen soldier, fighting unmarked beside his men. Unfortunately, he can't seem to remember what planet it is they are fighting on.

Wow, how did I miss this thread this morning?!?!

Is this post Dune or pre-Dune? Cause either way it screws up.

The War of Assasins between House Grumman and House Moritani was before Dune.

Jamis was the first man Paul killed.

If they had read Dune they would know that. But I guess even if they did it doesn't matter to them.

[SandChigger]

The reference to Paul fighting along side his men was to the Jihad/Emperor time period.

Found something I knew was going to be there, on p. 37 (UK paperback):

Wrapped in a cloak of his own importance, Korba stood at the foot of Paul's throne like a guardian. He had embellished his traditional stillsuit and robes with marks of rank, and mysterious religious symbols drawn from archaic Muadru designs. Irulan doubted that Korba expected anyone to spot the influence, but with her Bene Gesserit training she had easily noticed what he was doing. The logical part of her mind saw the purpose of Korba's obvious plan.

I've skim-skipped through most of the first section. The quality of the writing is no better than before so far as I can see ("wrapped in a cloak of his own importance"? Oh just fuck my eyes and get it over with already ) and there's the same ole level of repetition-reminders in case you haven't reread any of the books in years. (Or have never read any of them?)

If I may jump to a possibly premature conclusion, this book is little more than a further attempt by Kevin and Fuzzhead to integrate his(their?) bullshit plot lines and characters more firmly into the original story line.

This is very sad.

[SandChigger]

And please let me continue!

It wasn't Irulan who fooked the pooch in writing The Life of Muad'Dib, Volume 1, after all: it was Paul who lied to her.

When she sorta confronts him about errors in the details of his early life that he provided her with for the writing, he points out that many of the details were painful and, besides, omitting or altering them made the story simpler and easier to understand (after all, the readership of the Imperium is like the target one for this book: anything too difficult is likely to confuse them ).

Like the "fact" that he had been off of Caladan before the Atreides moved to Arrakis. And the "fact" that he had been born on Kaitain.

(Btw, his trip to Caladan with Jessica at the beginning is cut short by the news that Stilgar and his men have taken Kaitain, so Paul flies off to be there. Summons Irulan from Arrakis, too.)

Someone needs to ask Kevin how Duke Leto could have forgotten the trip they took when Paul was twelve in the following passage. As well as why Paul did not find it strange that his father had forgotten something that happened just a few years before:

Seeing the direction of his father's stare, Paul thought of the wet skies out there—a thing never to be seen on Arrakis from all accounts—and this thought of skies put him in mind of the space beyond. "Are the Guild ships really big?" he asked.

The Duke looked at him. "This will be your first time off planet," he said. "Yes, they're big. We'll be riding a Heighliner because it's a long trip. A Heighliner is truly big. Its hold will tuck all our frigates and transports into a little corner—we'll be just a small part of the ship's manifest."

I'm wondering if we won't find some passage containing a bullshit retcon about them agreeing never to speak of the traumatic events again, or at least not where they could be overheard by others.

[TheDukester]

So it's sounding like The Other Guy's alleged "Dune Concordance" has about as much basis in reality as "Frank's lost notes."

What a fucking pair of losers those two dickheads are.

[Nebiros]

When it is in stores, tell me if there will be Norma or not in the story. Because if she is, I will not buy the book.

[SandChigger]

I find it highly unlikely that FH would have failed to mention AT LEAST ONCE IN SIX BOOKS something as apparently well-known to Dunizens as the Muadru.

Kevin and Brian have not failed to mention them IN A SINGLE BOOK since they were first introduced in The Machine Crusade.

(Nebby...I can't seriously believe that even Brian would be stupid enough to introduce The Normacle into this book. I've been wrong before, though....)

[SandChigger]

Not a spoiler...just rotten:

[Seraphan]

Not a spoiler...just rotten:

Oh...my...god! That's the second most pathetic thing i've ever seen!
Can't wait for GamePlayer to make a demotivator out of this

[SandChigger]

OH YES, THERE'S MORE!!! To the Muadru than meets the eye!

The Fenrings show up at the Arrakeen Residency to pay their respects. (Little Marie is already there for some fool reason or other, and has been befriended by Little Alia.) Paul takes Fenring down into the catacombs beneath the citadel...tunnels and spaces whose walls are covered with...MUADRU SYMBOLISM!!!

Paul sort of expounds his Muadru lore at Fenring, who pretends to have not known about the catacombs.

OH! Apparently the Muadru arrived on Dune before it became a desert!

OH! Some legends (told by whom, based on what?) suggest that it was they who brought the sandworms to Arrakis!

OH! Remember how we have remarked on the similarity between Muadru and Muad'Dib? Paul says, "There appears to be a linguistic connection between the Fremen and the Muadru, but the latter race vanished at independent sites all over the galaxy—suggesting a terrible cataclysm that took them all at once."

Yeah, they probably foresaw what Kevin had in mind and tried to destroy themselves. Gah.

The above shit is on p. 486 of the UK ppbk.

I assume this is the last of the Muadru passages in this one. No doubt one of the post-Legends/pre-Houses decalogy will be entitled The Muadru of Dune.

OK, new topic: THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT!!!

So we've got the three Fenrings visiting in the Residency. They make their move at dinner time. Marie is the first attacker. There are some booby traps that no one has discovered in all these years, some paralytic-gas releasing Tleilaxu necklace beads etc etc. Marie tries to penetrate Paul's shield with some Ixian needle whip thingy, Alia comes to her brother's defense and Marie goes after her. Alia grabs the Shaddam dagger, which Fenring has brought to the dinner table and eventually kills Marie with it. (This, by the way, is the origin of the "St. Alia of the Knife" name?) Fenring collapses over the dead body of the little girl and Paul, his spidey sense tweekin' like crazy but moved nonetheless by his brotherly feelings toward Fenring, come closer and Fenring pulls the dagger from the girl and plunges it into Paul's chest.

He crumples, starts to bleed out. They call the Suks, but they figure they have no chance of saving Paul until Chani has the brilliant idea of moistening his lips with Water of Life to put him into a spice coma. While his heart is stopped the Suks repair the damage and then his heart starts up again. Irulan sees Korba slip the bloody dagger into his sleeve and make off with it.

Ugh...I just vomited a little bit into my mouth.

[SandChigger]

Oh...my...god! That's the second most pathetic thing i've ever seen!
Can't wait for GamePlayer to make a demotivator out of this

Don't you think Kevin looks a bit porky for all the hiking he's supposed to be doing?

[SandChigger]

I was apprehensive when I heard that Norma would pop up in this book but I actually have come to the decision that it could be a good thing (speaking to fans of the new stuff, I'm aware of the OH opinion that it's all bad, thanks). In Hunters and Sandworms Norma just seemed out of place, hopefully the new books will help her appearance in those two feel more organic.

I found it hard to believe that a character of Norma's seeming power and opinion (her strong sense of duty to humanity) would just "sit by" and not make a peep for millennia then just pop in at the last moment.
I hope they flesh out what came to define her (in her mind/opinion) during those ages following tBJ.

...

I keep staring at the "PoD spoilers" topic at Jacurutu, barley keeping myself from spoiling it , I know the OH "reviews" (not sure if it can be called a review if one hasn't read it and has no intention of doing so ) while undoubtedly having negative slants will have certain story related facts. I don't want to spoil it for myself (I've waited this long,right?) but DAMN IT! I want to know what happens!

Simon, how do you do your artwork with your head so far up your ass? Do you use one of those speculum thingies to pry the cheeks apart enough to see back out? With little mirrors, maybe?

Pay attention, dammit: I made up the bit about Norma being in the book. Just like I did the bit about Serena. Just like Kevin and/or Brian made up the shit about her importance in the scheme of things Dunesque.

At least...I haven't found any mention of Norma or Serena YET.

And WTF are you saying in that last? What fucking "reviews" are you on about?

I'm posting spoilers here gleaned from skimming around the book. I fully intend to read it from cover to cover and rip the stuffing out of it. Any errors in the details presented here are a result of my current method, not any intentional attempt to bias or deceive.

Sheesh.

Seriously, everyone, ALL Ohioans are not this dense.

[Seraphan]

Oh...my...god! That's the second most pathetic thing i've ever seen!
Can't wait for GamePlayer to make a demotivator out of this

Don't you think Kevin looks a bit porky for all the hiking he's supposed to be doing?

Porky enough to be roasted on a low fire

I know the OH "reviews" (not sure if it can be called a review if one hasn't read it and has no intention of doing so Razz )

Ok first of all, what reviews? Where? Go and grab me one post that says in any way "my review of PoD".

[Freakzilla]

Don't you think Kevin looks a bit porky for all the hiking he's supposed to be doing?

he didn't do too much hiking... remember he wrote Pail of Dung in a couple weeks

He looks more like a bowler.

[Robspierre]

From the latest TOR newsletter emailing:

Over the past ten years, Brian Herbert and I have explored Frank Herbert’s Dune universe, ranging from ten thousand years before the original Dune (in our “Butlerian Jihad” trilogy) to five thousand years after Dune (in our most recent pair of novels, Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune). However, we faced our biggest challenge when writing Paul of Dune, a novel intimately entwined with the original masterpiece, dealing with the most important character of the series.

At the end of Dune, Paul Atreides is a charismatic, optimistic hero who has just overthrown the corrupt Emperor; crushed his enemy, the Baron Harkonnen; and taken the Princess Irulan for his wife. He is about to launch his faithful Fremen on a violent jihad to cement his control of the galaxy. Frank Herbert wrote his own followup to Dune—Dune Messiah—but he chose to pick up the story a dozen years after the original novel: The jihad is already over, countless billions have been killed, and Paul has become a tyrant—an extremely unsympathetic character who has turned a blind eye to the corruption in his government and the awful things being done in his name.

What in the world happened between those two novels? How can we explain the dramatic shift in Paul’s character? Paul of Dune is the untold story of that vital gap in Dune history; how the legend—and tragedy—of Paul Muad’Dib unfolds; and how Princess Irulan becomes his biographer, propagandist, and myth-maker, willing to doctor history as she sees fit.

Because the story is so closely meshed with Frank Herbert’s classics, plotting our novel and adding crucial events about the brief, dramatic reign of Muad’Dib posed a considerable challenge for us. Brian and I read, and reread, and reread the original classics, as well as Frank Herbert’s notes and correspondence, in order to develop Paul of Dune. The millions of Dune fans worldwide now have the missing link in Paul’s transformation from hero to tyrant.

Rob

[Freakzilla]

From the latest TOR newsletter emailing:

...and how Princess Irulan becomes his biographer, propagandist, and myth-maker, willing to doctor history as she sees fit.

Rob

She had to doctor it to make your inconsistancies work, nimrod.

[Ghost]

At the end of Dune, Paul Atreides is a charismatic, optimistic hero who has just overthrown the corrupt Emperor

Emphasis mine, Optimistic hero?? Optimistic? that guy clearly didn't read Dune...

The jihad is already over, countless billions have been killed, and Paul has become a tyrant—an extremely unsympathetic character who has turned a blind eye to the corruption in his government and the awful things being done in his name

Again emphasis mine, i don't think that, specially the awful things being done in his name

Because the story is so closely meshed with Frank Herbert’s classics, plotting our novel and adding crucial events about the brief, dramatic reign of Muad’Dib posed a considerable challenge for us. Brian and I read, and reread, and reread the original classics, as well as Frank Herbert’s notes and correspondence, in order to develop Paul of Dune. The millions of Dune fans worldwide now have the missing link in Paul’s transformation from hero to tyrant.

MEGAFUCKINGLOL, i knew that the entire newsletter was written by the fucktard.

[Secher_Nbiw]

and Paul has become a tyrant—an extremely unsympathetic character who has turned a blind eye to the corruption in his government and the awful things being done in his name.

as if we didn't need any more proof these morons miss the entire point of Dune. If anyone still thinks they are doing a good job after reading that comment alone, they are either entirely braindead or have never read the original Dune series.

[TheDukester]

What in the world happened between those two novels?

A galactic jihad, morons. It was in all the papers.

How can we explain the dramatic shift in Paul’s character?

It's already been handled, dumbasses. A real writer by the name of Frank Herbert — a guy who actually understood the concept of "show, don't tell" — wove it into his narrative 30 or so years ago.

+++++

Seriously, what a goddamned farce PoD is. A story that is best told off-stage is going to be reduced to 200 chapters of zap-guns and death-rays by a guy who thinks hiking is writing. Fucking FARCE!

[Ampoliros]

Yeah, they probably foresaw what Kevin had in mind and tried to destroy themselves. Gah.

Which will be explained in Kevin's New Trilogy!

Over the past ten years, "Brian Herbert" and I have fondled Frank Herbert’s Dune universe, ranging from ten bah-zillion years before the original Dune (in our “Butlerian Jerkoff" trilogy) to five thousand years after Dune (in our most recent pair of novels, Huntards of Dune and Sadworms of Dune). However, we faced our biggest challenge; I mean it's Ultra Bigger than our last Maximo-biggest challenge; when writing Pauul of Dune, a novel very, very, intimately entwined with the original masterpiece, dealing with the most important character of the series. I totally got off.

At the end of Dune, Paul Atreides is a charismatic, optimistic hero who has just overthrown the corrupt Emperor;...

I'm sorry what? What corrupt Emperor? Muad'dib? or Shaddam. 'Cause neither of them was 'corrupt'. It's called Politics. Its on your TV right now.

...crushed his enemy, the Baron Harkonnen; and taken the Princess Irulan for his wife. He is about to launch his faithful Fremen on a violent jihad to cement his control of the galaxy. Frank Herbert wrote his own followup to Dune—Dune Messiah—but he chose to pick up the story a dozen years after the original novel: The jihad is already over,...

No, it itsn't

...countless billions have been killed, and Paul has become a tyrant—an extremely unsympathetic character who has turned a blind eye to the corruption in his government and the awful things being done in his name.

What in the world happened between those two novels?

(Oooo, question and answer time with the fans!)
The Jihad happened, now kindly STFU

How can we explain the dramatic shift in Paul’s character?

Read Frank's books. Attempt to understand Frank's books.

Paul of Dune is the untold story...

No it isn't, Frank told us everything we needed to know already.
...of that vital gap in Dune history;...

No, here the Vital Gap is between craftmanship and manufactured pulp.

how the legend—and tragedy—of Paul Muad’Dib unfolds; and how Princess Irulan becomes his biographer, propagandist, and myth-maker, willing to doctor history as she sees fit.

I GET IT, KEVIN THINK'S HE IS IRULAN! It makes sense, you know it does.

Because the story infects Frank Herbert’s classics, plotting our novel and adding crucial events about the brief, 12-year drama-queen reign of Muad’Dib posed a considerable challenge for us, our biggest yet! Brian and I finally read the covers of the original classics, as well as Frank Herbert’s recipes and correspondence, in order to attempt to legitimize Paul of Dune. The ten Dune fans left that read our Bestsellers now have the missing link in Paul’s transformation from hero to tyrant. They had better like it, because I'm not done with Dune yet. I'm very excited at all the new books I'll get to squeeze and squeeze and squeeze out of Arrakis! Arrakis is the other name for Dune for those who don't know. Its all explained in my upcoming trilogy about Milking Sandcows

EDITED HEAVILY.