"New Canon" inconsistencies....

[A Thing of Eternity]

Ahem...the only time there could be any fact-checking going on is when they pass the manuscript around to Kevin's "readers". (And who doesn't think they're just a bunch of ass-kissing yes-men.) If Byron was just reading PoD right before it hit the stores, you can be fairly certain that the other members of the HLP hadn't seen it either.

So you agree - this Dune expert is fake? Even a yes-man "expert" fact checker would, I imagine, still unearth most of the mistakes we do, so I don't think there is much chance that there actually is any "expert".

I followed up on this when the ass that roared first made the claim that he had a "Dune phd" on staff. Turns out its the eye doctor, Atilla Torkous. Torukos wrote the Dune timeline that they have been passing around, and he at one point did earn a PhD, but he is not a Dune scholar, he fact checked nothing, his PhD is in a discipline other than literature, and he provided no feedback to KJA whatsoever. that, my friends, is straight from the horse's mouth. He is a really nice guy, but a reliable book proofer he is not, and does not want to be.

As to his other proofers, I dont know who they are. Word on the street is that David Hartwell was involved in editing Sandworms and Hunters. I dont know the man (yet) but I know his work and respect it a great deal. I wish I could prove that was a lie too, but I have not been able to yet. I do know that Harttwell was also involved at Campbell's request with Dune as well.

Didn't KJA specifically state that one of the people doing his reading was the Dune PhD - what a Hack.

[TheDukester]

WHY THE HELL SHOULD THE TWO BIGGEST DUNE FANS IN THE WORLD NEED SOMEONE ELSE TO DO THEIR FACT-CHECKING FOR THEM?!

In Kevvie's case, I'm sure he'd tell you, for the 10,000th time, just how little time he has. He's an artist, you know.

In Brian's case, he'd look at you blankly, 30 seconds would pass, and then he'd say, "What now?"

[GamePlayer]

I'm young, and there are so many expressions to learn.

I would advise against learning those expressions. They need to die a horrible death, right along side "happy camper".

[A Thing of Eternity]

I'm young, and there are so many expressions to learn.

I would advise against learning those expressions. They need to die a horrible death, right along side "happy camper".

Hmmm. You may have a point there.

[trang]

Great Information on debunking the fact checking and DunePHd thing. I pretty much can simplify this and show that KJA/BH are complete liars.

Book One, Dune, Opening epigraph, by Frank Herbert:

"A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct. This every sister of the Bene Gesserit knows. To begin your studies of the life of Muad'Dib, then, take care that you first place him in his time: born in the 57th year of the Padishah Emperor, Shaddam IV. And take the most special care that you locate Muad'Dib in his place: the planet Arrakis. Do not be decieved by !!!!!!THE FACT !!!!!that he was born on Caladan, and lived his first fifteen years there. Arrakis, the planet known as Dune, is forever his place."

-- from "Manual of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

Anything they say beyond this is a lie pure and simple. Page one verse one, paragraph one. Pretty much says it all doesnt it? They havent read DUNE, and everything they have written is complete bullshit.

PAUL WAS BORN ON CALADAN AND LIVED THERE HIS FIRST 15 YEARS!! HE DID NOT LEAVE, HE DID NOT PASS GO, HE DID NOT COLLECT 200!! YOU COMPLETE HACKS!!! this is directed at KJA/BH.

this might have been pointed out before, just revisiting.

Trang

[A Thing of Eternity]

this might have been pointed out before, just revisiting.

Trang

I think I've heard it mentioned once or twice.

Doesn't get old though.

[GamePlayer]

Yes, it's been mentioned, but it's such a major error that it's worth mentioning again.

You know, not even the factual error makes it all that big a blunder. The part that damns KJA/BH as total hacks is the fact that Paul's birth and first 15 years on Caladan is not buried in some chapter or referenced in some obscure part of the addendum. It's right there in chapter one, page one of Dune. Sitting right there at the top of the page in the front of the book for easy reference and in italics no less!

What a pair of losers.

[TheDukester]

We've all met KJA's type before: incapable of admitting error.

And the bigger the mistake, the harder they'll argue that they're actually "right."

[SandChigger]

OK, folks, seriously? Sounds like it's time for a bit of a reality check here.

It says on the first page of Dune that Paul was born on Caladan. Anyone who has opened the book even once has probably read at least all of that first epigraph. So both Kevin and Brian know the "fact". And Brian grew up in the home of a man who named a boat "Caladan", and he has indicated in writing that he knows the origin of that name.

It's fun to jump up and down and yell booga booga at the Hacks and call them idiots every now and then (Gawd knows I do it often enough! ), but let's don't start believing they're TOTAL idiots just yet, how's about? Because the truth in this situation is much more damning.

They didn't make a mistake here. I refuse to believe that two human beings who have lived as long as they have, drawing breath without swallowing their own noses, could be stupid enough to make an error like that. They saw a chance to be "creative" (in their minds) and ran with it.

Turning GP's comment above around a bit, this isn't a blunder in some throw away passage in some transitional connecting "chapter". This is an intentional change upon which is based much of what they wanted to introduce into the McDuniverse (the Piter gholas, Irulan as a flawed or manipulative/biased historian).

In this case at least, let's not make the mistake of underestimating the enemy. They aren't (can't be) as stupid as we'd like to think them. I fear they are quite cunning at times. And as long as they can make a fast buck, they obviously don't care what they do to Frank Herbert's Duniverse.

So one observation does remain true: THEY ARE BOTH EXTREMELY SHITTY WRITERS.

[GamePlayer]

I might agree with that interpretation, but it depends upon what was actually being done with the plot point for changing Paul's birthplace to Caladan. SInce I don't read those awful books, I'd need someone to describe what's been done with it.

However, I have a very easy time believing they royally fucked up. Not because I underestimate their intelligence or am blindly on the bashing wagon at the expense of "knowing thy enemy". But because I have great confidence in the way those two have created a negative association between "paying attention to details" and "talifans will just pick apart everything we do anyway". They are in an adversarial mindset because of negative response to their poor quality books. As such they don't pay attention to facts or prose both because it's their natural laziness and because they are at war with the "few bad apples".

[A Thing of Eternity]

Chig - that's what I figure too, I really don't think it was something they forgot, but something the felt they could get away with.

[Omphalos]

They didn't make a mistake here. I refuse to believe that two human beings who have lived as long as they have, drawing breath without swallowing their own noses, could be stupid enough to make an error like that. They saw a chance to be "creative" (in their minds) and ran with it.

Nope. This is a mistake. Yes, they may have decided that they were going to be creative adn play around with certain facts, but they vastly underestimated (read: made a mistake about) the weight of evidence for the contrary proposition. They fucked up. And every other idiodic thing that have done, and will continue to do, convinces me that I am right. The very idea that they consciously realized that they were playing around with an idea that was so deeply set in Frank's cannonical stories I find preposterous. These fuckwads failed to read the books deeply, failed to realize the weight of the evidence, made a decision that they probably only talked about for a few moments, and went with it without bothering to check again to make sure that they could be right. That is a mistake, and a stupid one at that.

[A Thing of Eternity]

I said something like that in a thread before, maybe at DN. I think they knew they were contradicting that first passage, I don't think that was a mistake per-say, but I do think tha they had no idea of all the other evidence and there lies their mistake. I agree with you Omph, the fact that they knew they were messing with something that is "cannon" and didn't bother to research further to make sure their idea would work is really even worse than a simple fuckup.

[DuneFishUK]

I said something like that in a thread before, maybe at DN. I think they knew they were contradicting that first passage, I don't think that was a mistake per-say, but I do think tha they had no idea of all the other evidence and there lies their mistake. I agree with you Omph, the fact that they knew they were messing with something that is "cannon" and didn't bother to research further to make sure their idea would work is really even worse than a simple fuckup.

It was a planned decision - blatantly. Everything these guys write that I've read so far relies on revealing new trivia, or explaining old trivia. I bet they planned it (as well as Jessica's Mother et al) as a big shocking duhn-duhn-duuhrn epic reveal that made people go "what! what? what!? wow!"... They (thought) they knew exactly what they were doing.


dumb dumb dumb - what, what, what, shit.

[SandChigger]

I have to believe that "Paul on Kaitain" was planned. They thought that they could get away with it because...well..."if [we] write it, they will believe it." (Can't you just imagine Kevin using that PoD line to convince Brian? Or vice versa?)

The alternative, that they did it by mistake, means that there's really no point in getting angry at or hating them for what they're doing to Frank's legacy, because they're obviously so stupid that they don't know what they're doing.

The Duncan's first kill/sword thingy and some of their other blunders I can see as being silly, inattentive mistakes, but not the first.

(Btw, Mohiam as Jessica's mother is in The Dune Encyclopedia, no?)

[DuneFishUK]

Yeah - they wanted to get people talking about their books (cos HC wasn't fun(ny) anymore...)

(Btw, Mohiam as Jessica's mother is in The Dune Encyclopedia, no?)

It's in FH's notes... according to BH and KJA.

[SandChigger]

Riiiiight.

I remember reading online somewhere that Mohiam as Jessica's mother is the one thing that FH really objected to in the DE but McNelly convinced him to let it stay.

As a joke.

[Hunchback Jack]

They didn't make a mistake here. I refuse to believe that two human beings who have lived as long as they have, drawing breath without swallowing their own noses, could be stupid enough to make an error like that. They saw a chance to be "creative" (in their minds) and ran with it.

Sorry, Chig, I have to disagree with you there. I really think they just made a stupid mistake or, to give them the most credit possible, decided to ignore the facts to make something work in their own story, hoping no one would notice.

Everything since then - the claims that "born" doesn't mean born but christened (or whatever it was), and now the outrageous nonsense that Irulan changed Paul's birthplace as part of some propaganda scheme - is all to cover their asses.

It's not some insidious scheme to rewrite Dune. It's a fuckup. The *result* is that they're having to rewrite Dune to "fix" things, but I don't think that was the plan from the start.

Edited to add: not that changing Paul's birthplace makes any *sense* given the Dune quote. The whole purpose of Irulan mentioning Caladan is to *dismiss* it. Why change something that is irrelevant to understanding?

HBJ

[Hunchback Jack]

I remember reading online somewhere that Mohiam as Jessica's mother is the one thing that FH really objected to in the DE but McNelly convinced him to let it stay.

We should try to find the source for that if we can. I remember reading that (or hearing about it) way before the House series, so it must be available in an interview or something.

HBJ

[SandChigger]

Yep, we should. Teg was saying a few days back that there are a lot of posts from McNelly in the alt.fan.dune archives. I've never ventured back that far, looking around, myself.... Should do, though, I guess.

As for Paul on Kaitain (and Darmok at Tanagra? ), we'll just have to disagree. I can see them being low enough to change something that fundamental intentionally, but not stupid enough to do it by mistake.

[Freakzilla]

It's also long been rumored that FH wrote a couple of the articles himself.

I'd love it if y'all could find evidence that FH dissaproved of Mohiam as Jessica's mother.

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

MOTHER OF JESSICA.
References found both in Book of the
Voices, the journals of Duncan Idaho-
13015, and in Lady Ghanima's
Commentaries to the Voices add
startling information about R.M. Gaius
Helen Mohiam's relationship to the
Atreides line. One question that had
always bothered Ghanima (and Empire
historians and geneticists) was the
identity of her father's maternal
grandmother. His Harkonnen
background apparently distressed Paul
Muad'Dib; the clash of Harkonnen and
Atreides blood was al-Harba's theme in
the memorable Arrakeen Tarot
(10304). The playwright, when dealing
with Paul's awareness of himself as the
genetic climax of an extended breeding
program, gives Paul the famous
soliloquy:
Blood. Blood. Blood. Blood. Blood.
I've wallowed in out-freyn gore so long
That shedding the body's water of one more
Harkonnen rabble is but to kiss my crysknife
And wet it in my very veins.
Harkonnen-Atreides. Atreides-Harkonnen. It's
all the same, and now at last
I'll cry no more nor shed a solitary tear
For any scum.
It is myself I weep for: brute
From long dead Vladimir; love from absent
Jessica;
Strength from that father who did die too soon,
And who knows what from that nameless
woman who bedded
That young Baron and damned my mother.
Blood. Blood. Blood. Blood. Blood. (AT II, iii,
26-38)
Al-Harba focused directly on
the question of Paul's unknown
grandmother, in the playwright's
exquisite pun, that "nameless worn-in"
who "damned" Paul's mother. The artist
so often perceives more clearly than the
historian.
There is also evidence that
information identifying Jessica's
mother was censored and destroyed by
Leto II. the Welbeck Abridgement of
the Bene Gesserit annual empire
assessment indicates that in 12335,
when Bene Gesserit historians, in an
attempt to increase the annual supply of
melange for The Sisterhood, threatened
to reveal the God Emperor's complete
ancestry, he assassinated them en
masse and destroyed the portion at the
Mikkro-Fishedotte which detailed his
ancestry. Although Leto razed the B.G.
records, he did not tamper with his
sister's notes, and through Ghanima's
patient work with the Voices the truth
was preserved.
During her work with the
memory Voices, Ghanima found
herself singularly attracted to Voices
with variations of one name: Ellen,
Elena, Helen, Elaine, Eleanor, Helene.
For reasons unknown to her, she and
Harq al-Ada also named two of their
daughters Eleanor and Helene. She
sought the source of this yearning,
seeking out all the Voices bearing the
general name. As she worked her way
through a myriad of Elaines and
Helenes, she found an increasing
number of Matres Executrice using tile
name. Much to her frustration, though,
whenever she tried to communicate
with women historically close to her,
she found that born her grandmother
Jessica and her father Paul blocked the
Voices. Jessica finally convinced
Ghanima that they were shielding her
from the danger of Abomination, from
a voice capable of con-rolling her. So,
for seventy-nine years, Ghanima
continued her work, avoiding the
Voices close to her historically. But
decades of pent-up curiosity finally
drove her to try once more to contact
the near Voices. With he help of her
mother, Chani — her ever willing
"Guard to the Portal of Memory" —
Ghanima finally managed to break
through Jessica's and Paul's
suppression. As recorded in Book of the
Voices, to Ghanima's astonishment, she
heard the voice of her great-
grandmother, Gaius Helen Mohiam:
As soon as I entered the prana-bindu
suspension, I heard a smalt, shadow voice,
fighting its way through my grandmother's
suppression: "Hear me! I will not hurt you. You
are blood of my blood and seed of my precious
line. I am Helen, your great-grandmother, child.
As I tested your father, now can I test you. You
are more human than he, for you are not afraid
of your humanity.
Thus Ghanima discovered what
her brother, father and grandmother
had tried to delete from history — that
the Atreides not only had Harkonnen
blood but also that of a powerful Bene
Gesserit Reverend Mother.
Ghanima's Commentaries
explains the Harkonnen-Mohiam
connection. A very young-looking
Helen using the name Tanidia Nerus,
had been sent to the Harkonnens as a
concubine. Her assignment was to
seduce Vladimir and produce a
daughter (who, with the Atreides line
would produce the mother of a Kwisatz
Haderach). Obviously, the relationship
proved displeasing to both parties, and
though Helen did become impregnated,
Jessica was her only child. As to the
effect on Harkonnen, Gaius Helen
seemed sure that she was his one and
only female partner. She denied his
later sexual preferences had anything to
do with the one night she had spent
with him. After bearing Jessica and
leaving her at a Bene Gesserit Kinder
House to be raised, Gaius Helen went
on to become a Reverend Mother,
adept at the "Sight." She confirmed that
she had become a member of the
triumvirate, a Mater Executrix. From
the records of these conversations with
Ghanima, we understand the Reverend
Mother as a powerful woman with only
one goal — to gain the power of the
Empire for the Bene Gesserit.
J.A.C. and G.E.

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

NERUS, TANIDIA
(dates unknown). Identified by
Leto II, before his accession to the
throne, as the mother of Lady Jessica
Atreides: "Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus
by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen."
This statement, now found recorded in
Leto's Journals (RRC 80-A115),
apparently sparked centuries of
argument and analysis among
generations of Atreides' scholars, as
evidenced by speculations about the
existence of any Tanidia Nerus in
numerous and various materials
discovered in the Rakis Finds.
Many scholars rejected Leto's
identification of Nerus as Jessica's
mother on the grounds that it was made
before Leto had begun any
investigation of his ancestral memories,
before he became emperor and
ascended the Lion Throne, and before
he had access to the Bene Gesserit
breeding records. They believed his
statement to be based on either whimsy
or incomplete information about his
grandmother's heritage. Other scholars
believed the name Tanidia Nerus to be
the resolution of a historical mystery
and labored to uncover proof of her
existence and ultimate maternity of
Jessica. Certainly, in his lifetime, Leto
II was never to utter another word in
public which would settle the matter on
either side.
However, through the sources
available today, particularly those of
the Lady Ghanima, Duncan Idaho-
13015 and the Journals of Leto II, the
Atreides' scholars descending from
both sides of the argument seem able to
finally agree on the answer, that
Jessica's real mother was the Bene
Gesserit Reverend Mother Gaius Helen
Mohiam, who used the name Tanidia
Nerus when she presented herself as
concubine to the Baron Vladimir
Harkonnen and that any written record
of Tanidia Nerus was merely part of an
attempt by the Bene Gesserit to keep
Mohiam's identity secret.
One recent scholar, Gwilit
Mignail, has suggested in The Nerus-
Mohiam Controversy that Leto
deliberately put forth the Nerus name
for two reasons: First, Leto may have
wanted to keep the identity of Jessica's
real mother from her, fearing that
knowledge of Gaius Helen Mohiam's
maternal relationship might have been
too much for Jessica to face under the
very difficult circumstances of the
revelation of her daughter Alia as
Abomination. Leto may have feared
that if Jessica learned that the woman
who had given her son the test of the
gom jabbar, who had become the
Corrino Truthsayer, who had acted in
loco matris to her, and who had
conspired against Paul in the name of
the Sisterhood was her true mother, it
might have unhinged Jessica's sanity.
Second, Mignail suggests that Leto
himself might not have been able to
face the knowledge that he was not
only part Harkonnen, but also was part
Mohiam, and hence part Bene Gesserit,
part "witch." Leto, after all, was barely
nine years old at the time and may have
lacked a certain amount of emotional
maturity. Thus his very youth may
have forced him to lie to himself and to
his grandmother Jessica.
Whatever the final truth in this
matter — and indeed it may never be
known with any certainty — the
identity of both Tanidia Nerus and/or
Jessica's true mother remains a
fascinating subject of conjecture by
many scholars.

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

Seem to me BH&KJA completely based their Dune: House Atreides book in these two articles. But they entirely forget to explain anything about the Tanidia Nerus that Leto II cited.

[SandChigger]

Freak, it's mentioned in the alt.fan.dune FAQ:

- _House Atreides_ makes Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam out to be Jessica's mother. We know definitely that Frank Herbert did not intend this, as it was the only entry in _The Dune Encyclopedia_ he objected to. (Willis McNelly convinced him to let it be included as a joke.)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sf/dune-faq/part1/

No source is given for the info, though. Will keep digging.