"New Canon" inconsistencies....

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 23 Jul 2008 00:41

I ran across this random ass FAQ on the net, has some (IMO) humorous comments about the mistakes made by KJABH. I think it's only up to date as far as the house series.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan. ... c4003ee397

Post by **Omphalos** » 23 Jul 2008 00:57

Gosh! Is Tones still updating that thing?

leagued · Post by **leagued** » 15 Aug 2008 14:13

Quote:
"Truly, I am the Kwisatz Haderach!"
-Duncan Idaho in Sandworms

Quote:
"The Sisters will now imagine I'm at least a potential Kwisatz Haderach. Another Muad'Dib. Bullcrap! As you're so fond of saying, Duncan. Neither of us would risk that. We know what he created and we're not stupid!"
-Miles Teg

"You're thinking I'm the Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "Put that out of your mind. I'm something unexpected."
-Paul

"You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."
-Paul

Lisan Al-Gaib · Post by **Lisan Al-Gaib** » 15 Aug 2008 14:39

leagued wrote:
Quote:
"Truly, I am the Kwisatz Haderach!"
-Duncan Idaho in Sandworms

Quote:
"The Sisters will now imagine I'm at least a potential Kwisatz Haderach. Another Muad'Dib. Bullcrap! As you're so fond of saying, Duncan. Neither of us would risk that. We know what he created and we're not stupid!"
-Miles Teg

"You're thinking I'm the Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "Put that out of your mind. I'm something unexpected."
-Paul

"You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."
-Paul

You are taking the quotes out of the context.

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 15 Aug 2008 15:13

leagued wrote:
Quote:
"Truly, I am the Kwisatz Haderach!"
-Duncan Idaho in Sandworms

Quote:
"The Sisters will now imagine I'm at least a potential Kwisatz Haderach. Another Muad'Dib. Bullcrap! As you're so fond of saying, Duncan. Neither of us would risk that. We know what he created and we're not stupid!"
-Miles Teg

"You're thinking I'm the Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "Put that out of your mind. I'm something unexpected."
-Paul

"You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach."
-Paul

Right after the second quote Jessica calls him on that, and Paul says he was wrong in the first statement. That's a character making a mistake, not the author; Frank knew full well that Paul was contradicting himself. That was the point of those scenes.

leagued · Post by **leagued** » 15 Aug 2008 15:52

Oh, I know. The quotes by Teg and Duncan are the same though, both are made by characters. Duncan contradicts Teg after learning more, that doesn't mean its a contradiction by the writers.

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 15 Aug 2008 15:56

leagued wrote:Oh, I know. The quotes by Teg and Duncan are the same though, both are made by characters. Duncan contradicts Teg after learning more, that doesn't mean its a contradiction by the writers.

Agreed.

EDIT - Agreed that this is a poor use of quotes, not that Duncan being the ubersupersomehowbetterthanletokwisatzhaderach isn't BS.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 24 Aug 2008 03:36

The Bene Tleilax discover the benefits of a religious government in Dune Messiah. Bijaz tells Duncan to give this message to Paul. I think this helps explain the whole confusion of Scytale as a FD before he's a Sheik.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 24 Sep 2008 01:29

Hmm, I'm rereading GEoD and from what I see of the BT there is no hint that they have any religious forms yet. It must have been an invention made for Heretics.

IIRC Duncan mentions that he remembers the axlotl tank. I'm pretty sure (provided it was recognizable) that he would mention it to Leto.

inhuien · Post by **inhuien** » 24 Sep 2008 04:05

There may not have been any mention of the Bene Tleilaxu having got religion before Heretics but is was meant to be their greatest of secrets after all. And all their Public manifestations were designed to create an illusion of clumsy stupidity to mask Their ultimate goal.

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 24 Sep 2008 22:52

inhuien wrote:There may not have been any mention of the Bene Tleilaxu having got religion before Heretics but is was meant to be their greatest of secrets after all. And all their Public manifestations were designed to create an illusion of clumsy stupidity to mask Their ultimate goal.

Yes...and maybe Leto II knew, but kept it quiet, like with the Ixian...

Lisan Al-Gaib · Post by **Lisan Al-Gaib** » 24 Sep 2008 23:18

inhuien wrote:There may not have been any mention of the Bene Tleilaxu having got religion before Heretics but is was meant to be their greatest of secrets after all. And all their Public manifestations were designed to create an illusion of clumsy stupidity to mask Their ultimate goal.

I didn't find very logical your explanation...And I don't think FH could have planned that. This explanation is similar to the "retcons" from BH&KJA...

IMO, FH hadn't had created all the religious background for the Tleilaxu yet, and we have to accept that. Wherefore the motive for their transformation being the acceptance of Leto II as their prophet is the most plausible.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 24 Sep 2008 23:19

Yeah i keep forgetting the part in DM where Bijaz tells Duncan to tell paul about the tleilaxu appreciation for a religious government. I think Frank meant to incorporate it all along but it didn't have any relevance until Heretics.

Lisan Al-Gaib · Post by **Lisan Al-Gaib** » 24 Sep 2008 23:25

Ampoliros wrote:Yeah i keep forgetting the part in DM where Bijaz tells Duncan to tell paul about the tleilaxu appreciation for a religious government. I think Frank meant to incorporate it all along but it didn't have any relevance until Heretics.

Yes, they had appreciation for a religious government, but that don't mean accepting religion for your own. The Tleilaxu Masters in DM liked the idea to control population by religion, but not becoming religious people itself. Do I make myself understandable? (I'm little lazy today)

Secher_Nbiw · Post by **Secher_Nbiw** » 25 Sep 2008 02:53

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:Yeah i keep forgetting the part in DM where Bijaz tells Duncan to tell paul about the tleilaxu appreciation for a religious government. I think Frank meant to incorporate it all along but it didn't have any relevance until Heretics.
Yes, they had appreciation for a religious government, but that don't mean accepting religion for your own. The Tleilaxu Masters in DM liked the idea to control population by religion, but not becoming religious people itself. Do I make myself understandable? (I'm little lazy today)

As clear as day mate. They basically wanted to do what most major rligions have done over the years, set up a belief system for the masses, become the head honchos in the religion so they could rule them, but not actually believe a word of it themselves.

inhuien · Post by **inhuien** » 25 Sep 2008 03:59

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
inhuien wrote:There may not have been any mention of the Bene Tleilaxu having got religion before Heretics but is was meant to be their greatest of secrets after all. And all their Public manifestations were designed to create an illusion of clumsy stupidity to mask Their ultimate goal.
I didn't find very logical your explanation...And I don't think FH could have planned that. This explanation is similar to the "retcons" from BH&KJA... IMO, FH hadn't had created all the religious background for the Tleilaxu yet, and we have to accept that..

Now I couldn’t really care less when Frank Herbert’s mews led him to the Bene Tleilaxu being religious zealots and frankly I couldn’t care less, however to point I am making is that he is, to my understanding, being entirely consistent with his own creation. It is well known that he had the Dune story well thought out and partly wrote up to the end of Children of Dune before the original novels publishing. is it not a little unfair not to allow him the artistic freedom to explore and expand his story over the next 20 years or so? Are there other story element from the last 2 novels that were not signposted in the first 4 do you take exception with?

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote: Wherefore the motive for their transformation being the acceptance of Leto II as their prophet is the most plausible.

Now I’m sorry but that doesn’t sit well with me but if that’s your take on it cool. If you’ve more to say on the point perhaps I could be convinced, but is it not normal for a Faith to be held in order that you are able to recognise and appreciate something as a prophet of your Faith rather that say “look that guys a prophet!! Lets all get a religion on??

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 11 Oct 2008 21:15

Was reading this (because I've heard of but never read anything by the author in question) and it reminded me of the current Dune situation and the difference between REAL, PROFESSIONAL writers and TALENT-FREE hacks:

LOS ANGELES -- Gruesome it may be to ponder, but it is a matter of fact that Mary, Queen of Scots, lost her head on Feb. 8, 1587.

When Philippa Gregory is writing one of her historical novels, she can't afford to do so.

"The history always comes first," Gregory said in an interview during a recent visit to America to promote "The Other Queen." "The story is set for me by the historical record."

Pity the Hacks Twain can't say, "The story is set for us by the fictional historical record established by Frank Herbert."

(source)

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 11 Oct 2008 22:58

Her Anne Boleyn novel has been on my list for a while.

I've read a couple of sample chapters that have been posted online. Unlike the sample "chapters" from Mr. Ray-Gun and The Sidekick, hers didn't make me want to scour my eyes with Drano.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 12 Oct 2008 01:10

Whenever I read something good, I have to seriously ask myself why I spend so much time reading this shit.

Robspierre · Post by **Robspierre** » 12 Oct 2008 13:59

SandChigger wrote:Whenever I read something good, I have to seriously ask myself why I spend so much time reading this shit.

You are a masochist who gets off on pain and suffering

Rob

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 12 Oct 2008 19:18

Oh. Right. Yeah, I always forget about that.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 13 Oct 2008 05:08

Can someone remind me again why Grumman is involved in a decidedly non-regulation War of Assassins with Ecaz instead of with House Ginaz?

I forget these things sometimes.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 14 Oct 2008 03:20

I'll just keep posting until someone else does!

Um...can anyone point to anything in Frank's original books that suggest Castle Caladan stands with one side facing the sea? That's from the Lynch movie only, right?

I've found these, from early in Dune:

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam sat in a tapestried chair watching mother and son approach. Windows on each side of her overlooked the curving southern bend of the river and the green farmlands of the Atreides family holding, but the Reverend Mother ignored the view. ...

Jessica stood facing the south windows. She saw and yet did not see the evening's banked colors across meadow and river. She heard and yet did not hear the Reverend Mother's question.

I find no mention of the sea or a shore or gulls or smell of salt in the air in any passage having to do with the Castle. A curving river and green farmlands and meadows sounds more rural than seaside, no?

I ask because there's mention of the sea side of the Castle in one of the "Young Paul" sections of PoD. And something in another about Paul going down to the fishing village nearby.

If there's nothing definitive in the originals I guess they can always claim it's in the fricking Notes, but the possibility that they got it from the movie is more attractive for obvious reasons.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 14 Oct 2008 10:26

I don't remember it being by the sea.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 14 Oct 2008 15:53

So maybe it's another of those "Frank wrote that scene for the movie, but we decided to put it into the books. FRANK wrote it, after all, and we thought it was dramatic. If the fact it contradicts two little passages in Dune keeps you awake at night, then maybe my friend you need to get a life" things?