A macro-view of the GP

[SandChigger]

You mean like Paulo?

Eeew, crap NO!

He almost does become lost. See the Leto-Harum topic where I posted the bit about his worm trip.

Almost ain't no cigar. Or something like that. He learns to cope.

Honestly, I'm at a loss to explain it exept that a Leto-free universe was her driving passion in life and that was the vision she locked onto. How do you explain Duncan's serial memories of gholas he didn't have cells for except that it is stored in the "ether" or something like that?

Actually, I like that "Leto-free universe" and think it works for my interpretation, too.

If Leto dies in such a way that the GP is not established after the present of her test, he may as well have never lived at all and the ultimate result is the same: a "Leto-free" universe. Just one with a different timestamp for the final extinction of the human species. She could lock onto a vision of such a universe in her actual future just as easily, no?

(I don't have an answer for the Duncan thing, either. But I don't think it's relevant here, is it? —Btw, have you seen Alia/Godgirl's ideas on OM as some sort of "out-there" memory database [in the ether or wherever] and each individual's DNA as the access ID code to the string of life-memory records of the individual's ancestors? Something like that ... it's been a while since I read it. I'll beep her over on Facebook and see if she'll come repost it here. Not sure if it does anything specifically for the Duncan question. (It was in a thread in the Dune group on MySpace originally.))

I do like your idea that her test temporarily made her latent prescience operant.

One is glad to have contributed.

I get such a joy "speaking about Dune with Dune fans", don't you know?

[semuta]

Siona herself did not have the scope of vision that the prophetic characters had. She may have born the no-gene but that does not make her prescient. I don't think she wanted to kill the tyrant for any advanced reason beyond, tyrants create dissidents. Her focus was not on intergalactic rulership nor the longterm survival of humanity. I doubt that she even knew she carried such an important dna, which is part of the beauty of her character the tleilaxu play on with Hwi whose innocense is what Leto falls in love with. Siona just wanted to kill the mofo who she considered the universe boss bad guy. To her logic, removing a tyrant will free humanity. Simple as. Of course to Leto that was proof that somebody had finally got the guts to stand up to him; the first hopeful Survivor of the complacent human species for several thousand years. In epitomising that, she alone justified his tyranny.

[SandChigger]

Siona herself did not have the scope of vision that the prophetic characters had. She may have born the no-gene but that does not make her prescient.

Who the fuck said she had the same degree of prescience? But if she's not prescient, where the fuck does the vision come from, fruitpie?

I don't think

Quite.

Since it appears you haven't read the books in quite a while and don't have copies to refer to at present (come up with that Chapter House crash passage yet? Thought not), the rest of your blah blah is of little interest.

[loremaster]

I'll buy in for a quid.

Her justification for removing the God Emperor (and i realise im going to step on a few "Leto is omnipotent" toes here). was that (slight paraphrasing)

If it was ever a reason for his (leto's) existence, it is not reason for what he has become

.

I think that, to all practical purposes now leto was becoming much like the tyrant he had been aping for so long. Maybe it was still a conscious act, to be a tyrant, but i think moneo noticed more and more (the Worm, etc) that leto was slowly losing his grip. It's kind of like the predator-prey cycle he goes on about.

The purpose of the predator is to improve the stock"

(scientifically, this is bollocks, by the way)

Leto said he was acting as the ultimate predator, and his little warblings about being a predator drove his "prey" humanity to become new, and passionate, and inventive beyond their previous limits. Leto himself says what he contains is "only the past". How can the past, (even the complete summation of everyone which Leto contained within) predict and outsmart a new, vibrant humanity? What im saying is that, like duncans redundancy, humanity had LEARNED from leto (his intention) and, at least collectively, had now moved beyond the power of any one tyrant to control (with no globes, siona, ixian navigation machines, later artificial spice etc). As soon as they were beyond the control of this one tyrant, collective humanity did him in. He knew eventually all his memories and prescience would NOT be enough to predict and control a human population.... THAT was what he was trying to achieve. The problem was the acid test for his new humanity involved them killing him.

Look at it mathematically if you like:

at the end of CoD, leto is more cunning, intelligent and in control than the sum of the rest of the universe: LETO > the rest of humanity in the universe

Leto drove humanity, exerting pressures on them and driving creativity, passion and instinct, sacrificing his own humanity in the process.
There came a point when Leto < the sum of humanity.

When leto became weaker, Siona and the guild and IX felt they had the power and resources to overthrow a tyrant. they did. at which point he was obsolete, humanity had learned the lesson he wanted to teach and now was just a deeper, grander version of the moaning old man in the corner.

In other words, letos time had come, his "children" had become more powerful and cunning than he, and yet he had to keep driving them, even though that meant they rose up and overthrew him. Leto fell, obsolete. His lesson learned, he has no purpose, and only limited effect on the universe after his death.

[Serkanner]

In short: by killing the God-Emperor humanity made sure the Golden Path was a success.

[Freakzilla]

In short: by killing the God-Emperor humanity made sure the Golden Path was a success.

...by gaining the ability to kill...

[HoryThory]

[semuta]

The problem was the acid test for his new humanity involved them killing him.

It was Letos weakness for Hwi that killed him. The Tleilaxu were behind this manipulation. Also the Tleilaxu facedancers had already taken over Ix by this time. Whether they were still under Tleilaxu own control we can only guess at. Ix were building No-ships which means that it is the Facedancers that are building No-ships which both they and Tleilaxu Masters are Scattering with.

When Waff and Scytale are considering that they are the last Masters, it is not because the others are dead; it is because many of them have Scattered and left the old universe behind. This should be taken into consideration when understanding what it is the Honored Matre are fleeing. As should that the Tleilaxu have already completed their own qwizatz haderach experiments years before the Bene Gesserit; although 'completed' is perhaps a misconception. The Tleilaxu Masters blended their own QH dna into themselves. By the time of Waff and of Scytale, these two are latter day generations at a stage of their own personal spiritual development to reawaken their past lifes (as they are technically gholas just like Idaho) and yet without the rest of their community to help them along with this. An analysis of Tleilaxu culture is highly revealing about the duniverse beyond the Atreides imperium. The leap of logic is how did they go from this, to the signs of what they became that are emerging or returning from the Scattering.

Another great big question that should be considered is how much of the Bene Tleilaxu was Leto aware of?

Listen, don't just wade in and ridicule what I am saying just because it is me saying it; all this is happening in the background there are enough clues in the story to discern that the Tleilaxu are very important to the whole thing even when they are not being mentioned. As readers we are told only a tiny fragment of their secrets.

[Serkanner]

In short: by killing the God-Emperor humanity made sure the Golden Path was a success.

...by gaining the ability to kill...

Amongst other things, indeed.

[semuta]

In short: by killing the God-Emperor humanity made sure the Golden Path was a success.

What about the thousands of worlds killed during the Jyhad in the name of Maud'Dib? During Leto's childhood, the only stories coming back to him from other worlds was that they had been destroyed by Fremen soldiers in the name of his fathers empire. Leto knew that Humanity is capable of killing. He himself had killed even as a boy, laza tigers no less. Plus all his Other Memories of countless wars. Why would he then pacify the whole species only to re-educate them into killing? It would be fruitless. The attitudes that he was attempting to breed into humanity were not so much about whether a human was willing to kill but whether they could turn their back on God.

There is an entry in the Dune Appendix called Sarfa.
It is a Fremen concept that translates as 'turning ones back on God'.

This means something different if you have studied human spiritual traditions that were an influence of Franks thinking behind the introduction of these plot elements. The serpent urea on the brow of an Egyptian pharoahs forehead represents Set (also known Sukhet) the shadow god. A pharoah represents the Sun (god) so he is allowed to turn his back on the Sun to look at the people who are worshipping him/her & the Sun (facing East). When he does this he is looking into his own shadow, which falls upon the people. This relates the concept to Karma. Another aspect of this teaching is that the midday Sun, when it is directly above our head, means that the shadow is most concentrated beneath our feet. This is where our karma trips us up; when we are directly beneath God (Sun). All of these contexts are fundamental to Egyptian spirituality and pharoahnic culture. Being a desert civilisation I had assumed that Fremen would have similar ideals, hence the subtle mention of Sarfa in the appendix.

What Leto does is he teaches humanity to commit Sarfa.

Dancing, moving our feet to avoid those pesky snakes of karma that keep tripping us. Dancing wild, non-rhythmic, that they cannot second guess our movements and lay in wait.
This is Sheeana's path.

[SandChigger]

The serpent urea on the brow of an Egyptian pharoahs forehead

OH MY GAWUD! A SNAKE DONE PEED ON PHAROAH'S ... um, where the hell is someone's brow of their forehead? Isn't brow another word for forehead?

It's uraeus (pl. uraei). Urea is a compound in urine. If you can't get even the little details correct, why should anyone believe you on anything bigger?

Big Houses, karma, it's all just one big mishmash, isn't it?

[semuta]

hey this thread is called golden pathway

[semuta]

the phonetic pronounciation changes the context of the word therefore the meaning.
egyptians call it fah-roo and ka-roo
(in anglo-american it is typically mispronounced fair-row and ky-row)
the etymology of egyptian consonants reveals hidden meanings.
but Im not going to explain any more to you because you aren't capable of considering me a teacher and you are a brat

[SandChigger]

The only "golden pathway" you seem to know is the stream of piss leaking from your brain and out your (virtual) mouth.

the phonetic pronounciation changes the context of the word therefore the meaning.

Gibberish.

Phonological context can change the way an individual word is pronounced.
Semantics (meaning) & syntax can determine which of alternative pronunciations appears in a given context. (You are a pervert. You are trying to pervert the discussion.)

egyptians call it fah-roo and ka-roo
(in anglo-american it is typically mispronounced fair-row and ky-row)
the etymology of egyptian consonants reveals hidden meanings.

Fascinating. And it might even be relevant if the differences you note involved consonants. But they don't, they're vowels.

but Im not going to explain any more to you because you aren't capable of considering me a teacher and you are a brat

You're quite right about that first, fruitpie! You have yet to post anything that has been even remotely interesting, but have spewed much that is silly when not downright erroneous. (Which you refuse to acknowledge or correct.)

I have nothing at all to learn from you. Unless it's how to act like a totally head-fucked loon on a BBS.

[semuta]

keeping you entertained though isn'tit. SO in the famous words of obi wan kenobi;
"who is the biggest fool,m the fool or the fool who follows?"
yeah man I must be a genius I can quote starwars.

consonants = components
i think most people who read that can identify what im talking about without feeling the need to bitch about it
fyi its not bullshit, the phonetic thing, in egyptian that is a part of the language; the vowel used determines the exact context of the word. roo means something similar but different from row. ray (re) means something different but related to rar (ra). thats how the spoken language works. with hieroglyphs its a bit more difficult to discern so you have to use the glyphs around it to establish context. thats the beauty of egyptology, the symbols have several tiers of meaning so the definitions in the cartouche explain several stories at the same time; the essence of which verifies the whole overall story. Of course the western academics will tell you that each glyph translates into a wrod, and a letter in english, and thats about as far as the published experts will teach the general public. those who can see can see. you should see how the jaguar priesthood got over this issue with their development of mayan glyphs, wow that really is sexy. not quite so easy to read though because there are a lot more factors going on. there are at least five ways to write every glyph in mayan and thats just in the positioning of the components. fun stuff huh. rather more interesting to me than meeting fuckwits on dune forums though. actually now I come to think about it, my studies are more interesting to me than most of the people in here. if admin have deleted me again by the time I return then of course I will have to think of a new sign in name again, thats your warning in advance. I don't like it any more than you do. later nerds

[TheDukester]

later nerds

See ya, fucktard.

[SandRider]

[SandChigger]

keeping you entertained though isn'tit.

Oh, you have NO idea, fruitcake.

SO in the famous words of obi wan kenobi;
"who is the biggest fool,m the fool or the fool who follows?"
yeah man I must be a genius I can quote starwars.

Yeah, and it just tickles my nipples to know that you associate Dune with Star Wars even in a small way. Just like The Hack and the legions of pretards.

consonants = components

I'm gonna channel 'Rider for a second here:

Dammit, son, you are so damned stupid
you just don't know when to stop.
You try to make it better and end up
looking just that much stupider.

OK, so let's see here. You originally posted "the etymology of egyptian consonants reveals hidden meanings." Now you want to say that "the etymology of egyptian components reveals hidden meanings"? That makes EVEN LESS SENSE.

i think most people who read that can identify what im talking about without feeling the need to bitch about it

I'd put good money on most people not even bothering to read your bullshit.

fyi its not bullshit,

Nah, look up two lines. It's bullshit.

the phonetic thing, in egyptian that is a part of the language; the vowel used determines the exact context of the word. roo means something similar but different from row. ray (re) means something different but related to rar (ra). thats how the spoken language works.

Um, fruitpie, it's part of EVERY language, even English: hAt hEt hEAt hIt hOt (hAWt) hOOt hUt. But the CONTEXT of a word is the words around it and has nothing to do with the vowel used.

ANCIENT Egyptian (which is a totally different language than what they speak in Egypt now, which is ARABIC) was a Semitic language, meaning that most of its vocabulary items (words) had a basic three-consonant (triliteral) root, just like Hebrew and Arabic. The vowels added to the root consonants are what created individual words. And the basic meaning could be changed by adding prefixes and suffixes.

with hieroglyphs its a bit more difficult to discern so you have to use the glyphs around it to establish context. thats the beauty of egyptology, ...

But that's true of Hebrew and Arabic and many other Semitic languages as well: the vowels are not usually written so you have to supply them from context. If you see KTB in an Arabic text you have to look at the CONTEXT to know if it's kataba "he wrote" or kutub "books", etc.

the symbols have several tiers of meaning so the definitions in the cartouche explain several stories at the same time; the essence of which verifies the whole overall story. Of course the western academics will tell you that each glyph translates into a wrod, and a letter in english, and thats about as far as the published experts will teach the general public. those who can see can see.

Oh, bullshit. The writing system is a mixture of elements that indicate sound and those that indicate meaning. Yes, there is a very interesting history behind the development of the system, but your conspiracy mumbo-jumbo is bullshit.

you should see how the jaguar priesthood got over this issue with their development of mayan glyphs, wow that really is sexy. not quite so easy to read though because there are a lot more factors going on. there are at least five ways to write every glyph in mayan and thats just in the positioning of the components. fun stuff huh.

Yeah, but totally unrelated to the Egyptian writing system and not terribly relevant here.

rather more interesting to me than meeting fuckwits on dune forums though. actually now I come to think about it, my studies are more interesting to me than most of the people in here.

Hey, fuckwit, I'm sure the feeling is mutual. You do seem to keep coming back to find us, though. I mean, it's not like we come out looking for you.

if admin have deleted me again by the time I return...

NO admin has deleted you here, you stupid shit, you probably just forgot your password and had to change email accounts in the interim. (Is that it? That's it, isn't it?! ) And you can't email one of the admins you've just implicitly insulted and ask them to change your account email to your current one because that would reveal who you are and spoil your deception. You are a deceiver, a liar, a spreader of misinformation and superstition and downright silliness. I'm no psychologist but I'd put good money on your being mentally ill. Anyway, your old account is still here, undeleted.

To wit: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=48" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

then of course I will have to think of a new sign in name again, thats your warning in advance. I don't like it any more than you do. later nerds

Oooh! Use "Green Hopi" again! I liked that one. Or what was the one from T(A)U? Kangamouse! Yeah, that was a kewl one, too!

By the way, Fucktard (damned good "wrod" that, Dukester! ), I saw where you'd PMed me. Haven't read it yet. Don't plan to. Might be some kind of psychic curse whammy thingie that would cause me to eat my nose if I read it.

[TheDukester]

I'd put good money on most people not even bothering to read your bullshit.

And you'd win, too.

Life's too short to read gibberish from doped-up wingnuts.

[SandRider]

I'd put good money on most people not even bothering to read your bullshit.

And you'd win, too.

Life's too short to read gibberish from doped-up wingnuts.

shit, you read everything I post ....


and say, whatever your name is today :

[Freakzilla]

Awesome

[Norma Cenva]

This means something different if you have studied human spiritual traditions that were an influence of Franks thinking behind the introduction of these plot elements. The serpent urea on the brow of an Egyptian pharoahs forehead represents Set (also known Sukhet) the shadow god. A pharoah represents the Sun (god) so he is allowed to turn his back on the Sun to look at the people who are worshipping him/her & the Sun (facing East). When he does this he is looking into his own shadow, which falls upon the people. This relates the concept to Karma. Another aspect of this teaching is that the midday Sun, when it is directly above our head, means that the shadow is most concentrated beneath our feet. This is where our karma trips us up; when we are directly beneath God (Sun). All of these contexts are fundamental to Egyptian spirituality and pharoahnic culture. Being a desert civilisation I had assumed that Fremen would have similar ideals, hence the subtle mention of Sarfa in the appendix.

What Leto does is he teaches humanity to commit Sarfa.

Dancing, moving our feet to avoid those pesky snakes of karma that keep tripping us. Dancing wild, non-rhythmic, that they cannot second guess our movements and lay in wait.
This is Sheeana's path.

that's my view of it too. that's why it's so important that Duncan turns his back on him also. And ofcourse the very nature of why the worms listen to Sheeana. As Odrade found out: it's a language.
Leto wanted humankind to be able to turn their backs on him. When a tyrant like Leot is no longer needed, the Golden Pathway has succeeded.

[Serkanner]

You messed up the quote. It is not mine.

[SandRider]

This means something different if you have studied human spiritual traditions that were an influence of Franks thinking behind the introduction of these plot elements. The serpent urea on the brow of an Egyptian pharoahs forehead represents Set (also known Sukhet) the shadow god. A pharoah represents the Sun (god) so he is allowed to turn his back on the Sun to look at the people who are worshipping him/her & the Sun (facing East). When he does this he is looking into his own shadow, which falls upon the people. This relates the concept to Karma. Another aspect of this teaching is that the midday Sun, when it is directly above our head, means that the shadow is most concentrated beneath our feet. This is where our karma trips us up; when we are directly beneath God (Sun). All of these contexts are fundamental to Egyptian spirituality and pharoahnic culture. Being a desert civilisation I had assumed that Fremen would have similar ideals, hence the subtle mention of Sarfa in the appendix.

What Leto does is he teaches humanity to commit Sarfa.

Dancing, moving our feet to avoid those pesky snakes of karma that keep tripping us. Dancing wild, non-rhythmic, that they cannot second guess our movements and lay in wait.
This is Sheeana's path.

You messed up the quote. It is not mine.

[Norma Cenva]

oops i'm sorry, i just pressed the "quote" button. didn't know what went wrong. but is it that important to you? cuz i don't really care who said it, only what it is that is being said.