A macro-view of the GP

[inhuien]

Here we go with the "you all"s again. Here's a suggestion, proof read your posts and think.

[Freakzilla]

Here we go with the "you all"s again. Here's a suggestion, proof read your posts and think.

What's wrong with "you all"?

[inhuien]

When it's said with an apostrophe nothing, 'twas the "me v's the rest of the board" useage that I found distasteful.

[Freakzilla]

Also i think that ''Dune History'' or the Golden Path is abouth bringing down monopolies.

IF that was so, Leto could swap 3.5 thousand years of boredom for a trip in a heighliner with a sandworm... Cheaper, cleaner, easier. No monopoly after that, either...

There is got to be something else there.

Or do you all think Leto did not chose the shortest possible path? That he chose to spend 3,500 years to build this GP thing just because?

Leto's metamophasis and the Golden Path are two seperate things.

Leto chose the metamorphasis to prevent the extinction of mankind. Something bad would have happened if he didn't. It was a very specific threat that only Leto knew about, I assume it was the self-improving-hunter seekers. The Golden Path was a plan to prevent something similar from threateneing mankind in the future.

Putting on the sandtrout skin is only the begining of the GP, it's what initiated it. The GP was what he decided to do with the time the sandtrout skin gave him.

[dunepunk]

sorry, Freak, you lost me with the self-improving hunter-seeker thing....

[Freakzilla]

sorry, Freak, you lost me with the self-improving hunter-seeker thing....

"At one time, your masters on Ix..
."
"They are no longer my masters, Lord."
"Forgive me. I will refer to them hereafter as the lxians."
She nodded gravely, prompting: "At one time. . ."
"The lxians contemplated making a weapon-a type of hunter-seeker, self-propelled
death with a machine mind. It was to be designed as a self improving thing which
would seek out life and reduce that life to its inorganic matter."
"I have not heard of this thing, Lord."
"I know that. The lxians do not recognize that machine makers always run the
risk of becoming totally machine. This is ultimate sterility. Machines always
fail . . . given time. And when these machines failed there would be nothing
left, no life at all."
"Sometimes I think they are mad," she said.
"Anteac's opinion. That is the immediate problem. The lxians are now engaged in
an endeavor which they are concealing."

Then in the next chapter he tells Siona:

"Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever.
And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings."
"Your supposed prescience," she sneered.
"The Golden Path still stands open," he said.


This was Leto's excuse for sending Anteac to raid Ix and scattering the no-field and INM technology.

I believe Leto Ascending to the throne, which he probably wouldn't have done without the Sandtrout skin, prevented Ix from releasing these self-improving hunter-seekers which would have exterminated mankind.

However the Golden Path was not intended to prevent any specific threat, it was intended to defeat any future threat through sheer numbers and distance.

[SandRider]

Half the time I can't follow what you're talking about, and that's
not a bad thing at all....

But dammit, man, i will also plead guilty of having communication problems, so probably it would help me if you could be so kind as to tell me when you do not follow me...

being unable to follow you're saying means it's probably over my head,
and so not a bad thing - it could also mean that I'm not all that interested
in the subject, so I'm not trying too hard.

in rhetoric, you can take a simple subject and use convoluted arguments
to obscure facts and twist the debate in your direction, to make the
argument dense and compact and difficult to untangle, thus difficult to
refute. This is the politician's method.

or you can take a complex subject and couch it in very simple, basic
terms - cutting to the heart of the truth as you see it. Maximum content
in minimum words. This is the instructor's method.

When you're young and newly-educated, people have a habit of over-
extending their arguments, to display their knowledge and attempt to
gain credibility. Some, and I suspect you are one of them, flat-out fall
in love with the debate and discussion as an "ideal" unto itself - communicating
truths takes a back seat to the exchange methods itself (the Young Bill Clinton
is the case study in this)

one great debate practice is "25 words or less" -
Using complete sentences, describe the ideology of Mao Tse Tung's People's Revolution in 25 words or less.




FED2K (supposed) DUNE discussion :
http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?board=1.0

[mrpsbrk]

When you're young and newly-educated, people have a habit of over-
extending their arguments, to display their knowledge and attempt to
gain credibility. Some, and I suspect you are one of them, flat-out fall
in love with the debate and discussion as an "ideal" unto itself - communicating
truths takes a back seat to the exchange methods itself (the Young Bill Clinton
is the case study in this)

Yes, i do love to argue and will even sometimes take a stance in which i do not believe much just to enrich the idea-throwing. But i only do this in lesser matters. I do not allow myself such a stance when discussing religious matters, like the Canon of Dune hahahahahhahaha. No, seriously, i try not to discuss for the sake of discussion when talking about Dune.

And the "way of the teacher" seems as bad as the way of the politician, if you ask me...

Communication is always a partial attempt, there is no content that passes directly from my consciousness to yours, as if by telepathy, no content whatsoever -- so we must be always fencing with wording. Like FH did ;-)

[mrpsbrk]

Freak, first you say:

Leto chose the metamorphasis to prevent the extinction of mankind. Something bad would have happened if he didn't. It was a very specific threat that only Leto knew about, I assume it was the self-improving-hunter seekers. The Golden Path was a plan to prevent something similar from threateneing mankind in the future.

Putting on the sandtrout skin is only the begining of the GP, it's what initiated it. The GP was what he decided to do with the time the sandtrout skin gave him.

But than you say:

However the Golden Path was not intended to prevent any specific threat, it was intended to defeat any future threat through sheer numbers and distance.

My first impression was "Decide yourself, man!" but then i noticed that you are splitting "Metamorphosis" from "Golden Path".

Then, why he didn't simply expose the Ixians and demanded the full weight of the Butlerian dogma to be thrown at it, making them an spectacular example?

I don't know, while reading GEoD my mind is always skipping between the "specific threat" hypothesis and the "general lesson" hypothesis. But in the end, it simply does not make sense to me to accept the metamorphosis to deal with a specific threat.

As i see it, you think Leto II was making a "Butlerian Jihad II", once more fighting against the thinking machines -- improving hunter-seekers or whatever.

I'll let this idea rest on my head for a while.

But, every time i mumbled about this idea, when i searched GEoD for arguments that would reinforce the single-threat hypothesis i fell short of it. For example, in the quote he is talking to Hwi about this hunter-seeker thing, he quickly derails into more preaching about the sterility of the machine and the difference between a good and a bad administrator. Then, a few phrases after, she asks why he chose the metamorphosis, and instead of "i just told you" he goes on about seeing the future. Why not just say her? Do you think he actually answered her question before she spoke it?

[Freakzilla]

"Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever."

That means the threat to humanity's extinction would have already happened.

If Leto had not put on the sandtrout skin, he would not have been able to re-unite the Fremen tribes and while Imperial Fremen were fighting Desert Fremen the Corrinos step in with their Sardaukar and no more Atreides empire. Leto would not have been in a position to stop Ix.

The Metamorphasis ensured he would become Emperor and deal with the current threat.

The Golden Path is for the future.

[inhuien]

Then, why he didn't simply expose the Ixians and demanded the full weight of the Butlerian dogma to be thrown at it, making them an spectacular example?

The GP needed Ix.

[Freakzilla]

Then, why he didn't simply expose the Ixians and demanded the full weight of the Butlerian dogma to be thrown at it, making them an spectacular example?

The GP needed Ix.

Yes, they invented no-fields and the Ixian Navigation Machine, both essential to the GP.

[dunepunk]

sorry, Freak, you lost me with the self-improving hunter-seeker thing....

"At one time, your masters on Ix..
."
"They are no longer my masters, Lord."
"Forgive me. I will refer to them hereafter as the lxians."
She nodded gravely, prompting: "At one time. . ."
"The lxians contemplated making a weapon-a type of hunter-seeker, self-propelled
death with a machine mind. It was to be designed as a self improving thing which
would seek out life and reduce that life to its inorganic matter."
"I have not heard of this thing, Lord."
"I know that. The lxians do not recognize that machine makers always run the
risk of becoming totally machine. This is ultimate sterility. Machines always
fail . . . given time. And when these machines failed there would be nothing
left, no life at all."
"Sometimes I think they are mad," she said.
"Anteac's opinion. That is the immediate problem. The lxians are now engaged in
an endeavor which they are concealing."

Then in the next chapter he tells Siona:

"Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever.
And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings."
"Your supposed prescience," she sneered.
"The Golden Path still stands open," he said.


This was Leto's excuse for sending Anteac to raid Ix and scattering the no-field and INM technology.

I believe Leto Ascending to the throne, which he probably wouldn't have done without the Sandtrout skin, prevented Ix from releasing these self-improving hunter-seekers which would have exterminated mankind.

However the Golden Path was not intended to prevent any specific threat, it was intended to defeat any future threat through sheer numbers and distance.

OK, that's right. kinda forgot about that little bit... I'll have to read GEoD a third time, I guess.

[loremaster]

Half the time I can't follow what you're talking about, and that's
not a bad thing at all....

But dammit, man, i will also plead guilty of having communication problems, so probably it would help me if you could be so kind as to tell me when you do not follow me...

being unable to follow you're saying means it's probably over my head,
and so not a bad thing - it could also mean that I'm not all that interested
in the subject, so I'm not trying too hard.

in rhetoric, you can take a simple subject and use convoluted arguments
to obscure facts and twist the debate in your direction, to make the
argument dense and compact and difficult to untangle, thus difficult to
refute. This is the politician's method.

or you can take a complex subject and couch it in very simple, basic
terms - cutting to the heart of the truth as you see it. Maximum content
in minimum words. This is the instructor's method.

When you're young and newly-educated, people have a habit of over-
extending their arguments, to display their knowledge and attempt to
gain credibility. Some, and I suspect you are one of them, flat-out fall
in love with the debate and discussion as an "ideal" unto itself - communicating
truths takes a back seat to the exchange methods itself (the Young Bill Clinton
is the case study in this)

one great debate practice is "25 words or less" -
Using complete sentences, describe the ideology of Mao Tse Tung's People's Revolution in 25 words or less.




FED2K (supposed) DUNE discussion :
http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?board=1.0

the second half of that post is one of the most insightful i have ever read.
reminds me of lawyers really. being better able to communicate your incorrect argument does not change the fact you are wrong.

[Norma Cenva]

Leto could not start another butlerian jihad with restrictions to the use of machines, because Leto believed that supression of those things would create them. It would make IX, or when he would've wiped out IX, any other "rebel" group, only try even harder to search for ways to go around those restrictions. it wouldn't solve the problem in the long term.
By the way: i recall that Siona saw a part of what Leto prevented when she was tested in the desert. And it clearly states that she saw machine hunters of some kind. I will look up the exact quote when i get my hands on my copy of GEoD.

[Nekhrun]

Is it this one?

Siona's eyes remained opened, but they no longer saw this place.
She jerked abruptly and began to tremble like a small creature dying. He knew
this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral
presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her
forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines
would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their
burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the
mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder!
Everywhere she searched, it would be the same. No escape anywhere.

[Norma Cenva]

Yep that's the one! Thanx! but ofcourse, like so many other things FH wrote, you can probably read lots of different things into it. it doesn't state litterally that The Enemy is a machine-powered thing, it just states that it enolves machines of some kind.
but that quote did make me think, before i read hunters of dune and the other one i don't even remember the name of, dune 8 lol, that the threat to humankind was machinelife, also because FH didn't invent something like the Butlerian Jihad for nothing. he wanted to make a point about machines taking over those parts of our lives that make us human, and also empasized that the GE wants people to be truly human, so why not introduce a machine-threat again?
altho i do get the bigger point about humankind not ever being suppressed by anyone or anything again, regardless of the shape of it.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Yep that's the one! Thanx! but ofcourse, like so many other things FH wrote, you can probably read lots of different things into it. it doesn't state litterally that The Enemy is a machine-powered thing, it just states that it enolves machines of some kind.
but that quote did make me think, before i read hunters of dune and the other one i don't even remember the name of, dune 8 lol, that the threat to humankind was machinelife, also because FH didn't invent something like the Butlerian Jihad for nothing. he wanted to make a point about machines taking over those parts of our lives that make us human, and also empasized that the GE wants people to be truly human, so why not introduce a machine-threat again?
altho i do get the bigger point about humankind not ever being suppressed by anyone or anything again, regardless of the shape of it.

Well, in this case I believe this is a self replicating hunter-seeker army (may be remembering that wrong) that I think was supposed to come out of Ix, but Leto prevented it.

To be entirely honest, I would not have been surprised if the super-facedancer threat was going to also involve higher machine usage - not necessarily AI, but heavily computerized none the less. If FH was going involve a machine threat I think it would have been a human vs human with machines scenario, nothing like in sadworms of dune.

(and it wouldn't have been some goofy leftover machines from the BJ)

[Nekhrun]

When I read that passage I believe you could take that to mean that he is referring to the past based on his reference to ancestral memories. That would also become the future of humanity if it were not for him.

Either way, Leto's the one who puts an end to it all forever and Siona becomes part of the path as well. If we are to believe that Dune 7 goes the way the hacks planned it Leto's existence and effort are pointless.

[Norma Cenva]

Either way, Leto's the one who puts an end to it all forever and Siona becomes part of the path as well. If we are to believe that Dune 7 goes the way the hacks planned it Leot's existence and effort are pointless.

ohh well it's a sign of lack of total respect for the Dune lovers from the side of Pinky and the Brian to think that we would believe what THEY wrote. Anyone still wonder why they don't want to publish the notes from FH on Dune 7? I'm not surprised.
i agree with the humans vs humans with machines thing, either hunter seeker thingies (altho i believe Leto crushed that idea very early on) or some new face dancer kind. It just totally frustrates me that I might never know what the threat was that FH meant, and what was the REAL deal with those NFD.

[SandChigger]

I don't think it can be a vision of some future that Leto had already prevented in the past because the only way Siona could be seeing that would be for them to be in a Sharing situation and him feeding the vision to her telepathically. Does anything in the text support that interpretation?

The point of the experience is to sensitize the individual Atreides to the need for the GP. It therefore has to be something that can still occur, right? Otherwise why should anyone care: Leto has already taken care of it.

Of course there's nothing in this particular passage to indicate that Leto is doing what I've previously explained I think he must be doing, either: imagining himself dying in a way such that the GP is not established, causing it to "wink" in and out of existence, with Siona seeing a future without it. (Leto, being the greatest prescient ever bar none, knows what she is seeing/will see because he sees it then, too.)

I think that makes more sense than visions of past crises solved.

[Freakzilla]

But Leto said that, by that time, without him there would be no people. Past, present and future are just labels we use to make sense of time, they mean nothing to the prescient. Siona's goal was to rid the universe of Leto, so it makes sense to me that the vision she saw was of an alternate timeline out of infinite probablities of what a universe without Leto would have been like.

[SandChigger]

Past, present and future are just labels we use to make sense of time, they mean nothing to the prescient.

If they meant "nothing" to him he wouldn't have any idea where he himself was located in time, would he? He'd be lost in a vision, unable to act further, not knowing the present. And he was speaking to a non-prescient.

Siona's goal was to rid the universe of Leto, so it makes sense to me that the vision she saw was of an alternate timeline out of infinite probablities of what a universe without Leto would have been like.

"Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever. And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings."

Conditional present perfect and past tenses. Yes, he talking about a alternate timeline, about a path in the past that led to a very different present, but how does he make her see something that is over and done with? Alternate timelines are certainly not stored in her body's OM. ("No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness..." tells me simply that the amount of spice-essence she consumed was insufficient to result in an Agony-like change, opening up her OM to conscious access like that of a Reverend Mother.) While not normally a prescient, she obviously has the Atreides talent in latent form. (Isn't that how you explain the invisibility to prescience granted by the Siona Gene, a low-power individual sphere of influence?) They have been sensitizing her by adding spice to her diet and the spice-essence in the desert temporarily triggers her prescience into full action IMO.

If she is not seeing a future that still may be without the Golden Path, how is he controlling her vision so that she sees and alternate past? Controlled/limited Sharing/Telepathy?

[Freakzilla]

Past, present and future are just labels we use to make sense of time, they mean nothing to the prescient.

If they meant "nothing" to him he wouldn't have any idea where he himself was located in time, would he? He'd be lost in a vision, unable to act further, not knowing the present. And he was speaking to a non-prescient.

He almost does become lost. See the Leto-Harum topic where I posted the bit about his worm trip.

Siona's goal was to rid the universe of Leto, so it makes sense to me that the vision she saw was of an alternate timeline out of infinite probablities of what a universe without Leto would have been like.

"Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever. And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings."

Conditional present perfect and past tenses. Yes, he talking about a alternate timeline, about a path in the past that led to a very different present, but how does he make her see something that is over and done with? Alternate timelines are certainly not stored in her body's OM. ("No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness..." tells me simply that the amount of spice-essence she consumed was insufficient to result in an Agony-like change, opening up her OM to conscious access like that of a Reverend Mother.) While not normally a prescient, she obviously has the Atreides talent in latent form. (Isn't that how you explain the invisibility to prescience granted by the Siona Gene, a low-power individual sphere of influence?) They have been sensitizing her by adding spice to her diet and the spice-essence in the desert temporarily triggers her prescience into full action IMO.

If she is not seeing a future that still may be without the Golden Path, how is he controlling her vision so that she sees and alternate past? Controlled/limited Sharing/Telepathy?

Honestly, I'm at a loss to explain it exept that a Leto-free universe was her driving passion in life and that was the vision she locked onto. How do you explain Duncan's serial memories of gholas he didn't have cells for except that it is stored in the "ether" or something like that?

I do like your idea that her test temporarily made her latent prescience operant.

[Nekhrun]

Past, present and future are just labels we use to make sense of time, they mean nothing to the prescient.

If they meant "nothing" to him he wouldn't have any idea where he himself was located in time, would he? He'd be lost in a vision, unable to act further, not knowing the present. And he was speaking to a non-prescient.

You mean like Paulo?