posts that I think will get deleted at DN

Lundse · Post by **Lundse** » 20 Oct 2008 05:00

Bearded Kirklander wrote:Wow. Tough Audience.
<snippe>

Indeed.

I think the Dune Novels board and the actions of its administrator (I just had my password changed because I wrote a farewell sig.-message asking people to PM if they truly wanted to discuss things) is polarizing people, to the point where we have an "us-vs-them"-mentality.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the new books and their authors, and I do not buy for a second their claims that they 'love dune', are great Frank Herbert fans, etc. - they are obviously either deluded or just do not care.
My dislike for Byron and eg. Arnoldo stem from their seemingly conscious attempts to misdirect debates, not answer questions, strawmanning or blithely badmouthing me - or just enabling that behaviour by not calling out those who do it and banning those who ask tough questions.

I do not hate anyone for liking the new novels, but I do think they are wrong when they claim the novels are in any way a possible continuation of Dune, that they are possibly consistent with FH's work or in any way anything more than young-adult sci-fi romps set in a universe their authors do not respect.
I am more than willing to debate these points, and tell you and others why I believe as I do.

And I would love to discuss Dune with you. Discussions featuring the work of Brian 'I piss on my father's grave' Herbert will probably feature, if nothing else, then a fitting sobriquet for him - like the present one.

But for my 2 cents, you are very welcome, and got far harsher answers than you deserved.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 20 Oct 2008 05:09

Polarizing people into two groups has been the object of that board since its inception. As should be obvious from the way its forums are set up.

I seem to remember pointing out to Byron that his set-up would foster dissension. I believe his response was "What's wrong with a little dissension?"

I guess he eventually got more than he bargained for. Maybe they hoped feeding the controversy would help draw attention to the site? Who knows.

Screw them and their books and board in the darkest deepest hottest pit of Hell.

Mr. Teg · Post by **Mr. Teg** » 20 Oct 2008 07:03

SandChigger wrote:Polarizing people into two groups has been the object of that board since its inception. As should be obvious from the way its forums are set up.

I seem to remember pointing out to Byron that his set-up would foster dissension. I believe his response was "What's wrong with a little dissension?"

I guess he eventually got more than he bargained for. Maybe they hoped feeding the controversy would help draw attention to the site? Who knows.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 20 Oct 2008 08:41

Lundse wrote:...a fitting sobriquet for him...

Is that like the ice cream you get between meals to cleanse your palet?

I guess I'm a little guilty for the dissension in the way the forums were set up at DN. It was my suggestion to have seperate forums for the classics and new books. But I got tired of Preeks coming into a genuine Dune discussion and saying, "Nu-uh, that's not what the new books say and they have the notes."

Seraphan · Post by **Seraphan** » 20 Oct 2008 09:26

Well i dont know if you're gonna show up here again but since this is a free forum here it goes:

Have you read Oliver Twist for example? Even if you didnt you probably know that it's about an orphan boy living in utmost poverty. Well this is about the plot, however the novel achieves it's greatness not because of the fictional events that take place but rather the way Charles Dickens aproaches the themes of poverty, social class, child labour and crime.
Other great novels achieve the title of masterpiece for similar reasons.
Frank Herbert wrotte a series of novels that are considered to be some of the very best sci-fi has to offer, not for (once again) the fictional events that take place but for the unique way he explored themes like ecology, human evolution, the relations between government religion and power, language itself, etc. Characters like Leto II in God Emperor of Dune embody many of Franks ideas and these are often uttered by the characters he created.
My problem with KJA and BH is the way they have disrespected Frank's ideas in order to sell dumbed down pulp fiction "things"; also criminal is the way they insist that their work is consistent when they, like in their Dune 7, ignore/stamp on/reverse Frank's well inbedded ideas.
Plus, their interquels (whatever you wanna call it) are being written in order to correlate their work over the originals that was done by someone else, example: "Paul of Dune - the direct sequel to Dune"
And to add to all this they have attempted to wrap every single person that voices these objections under the lable of nerd, Orthodox Herbeterian and biased.
My objections are on the literary sence and not out of "religious fatatism" like you so narrow mindedly mentioned. Every single person here is resposible for his or hers own words, this is not a cult ragardless what you may have been told or erroneously interpreted. I dont share Serkanners opinion about you posting about audiobooks, you're free to do so, it's why i came to this place, just dont come here and step on my heels by calling me and everyone here a religious zealot.

Edited: I'd just like to add the fact of how the hlp have considered the Dune Encyclopedia non-canon so that their two love birds could use it has the "mysterious" notes.

Lundse · Post by **Lundse** » 20 Oct 2008 09:49

Freakzilla wrote:
Lundse wrote:...a fitting sobriquet for him...
Is that like the ice cream you get between meals to cleanse your palet?

I guess I'm a little guilty for the dissension in the way the forums were set up at DN. It was my suggestion to have seperate forums for the classics and new books. But I got tired of Preeks coming into a genuine Dune discussion and saying, "Nu-uh, that's not what the new books say and they have the notes."

Seperating the forums is a great idea! One cannot discuss Dune seriously while drawing on the new novels (except for contrast).

The dissension I dislike, and believe we do not need, is the lumping into groups. This goes both ways, as Seraphan pointed out; a 'prequelite' might assume that every OH'er is rude and hates everyone who enjoyed the prequels, and we have a tendency to snap at whoever liked the new books, assuming they equate every 'idea' of FH&KJA with Frank's and are unable to fathom that the latters books are magintudes more complex.

Mr. Teg · Post by **Mr. Teg** » 20 Oct 2008 09:56

Seraphan wrote:Edited: I'd just like to add the fact of how the hlp have considered the Dune Encyclopedia non-canon so that their two love birds could use it as the "mysterious" notes.

At the end of the day, that's what the mystery is most likely all about.
(I think there is more to the story than their usual love at first sight version. More a marriage of convenience.)

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 20 Oct 2008 12:55

Bearded Kirklander wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:
Bearded Kirklander wrote:I feel as though I have already worn out any welcome that I may have had. It is quite disappointing.
If you really believe that and are ready to give up so quickly, one has to wonder at your motives for even coming here. No offense
What possible motives could I have? It's a freakin' series of books, not some majestic religious discovery.

I found this place via a google search and bam, find that someone was ripping me to shreds for posting on the official Dune Novels site. Why the hell would anyone care about what someone posts on a site you guys don't even like?

It's like you guys have a hardcore, piss-poor attitude, and don't seem that interested in the fact that I might actually find something entertaining in the series, canon or no canon.

Me? I'm a fan. You guys? You seem to be fanatical, and that negative vibe is just not necessary.

This just ain't the place for me to be visitin'. You all are too harsh.

Am I to take it "motives" are something only for nefarious gravediggers and ambitious televangelists of mankind?

Seriously, if you can't cope with people sharing their opinions, harsh or otherwise, then what can I say other than perhaps it's time to grow a thicker skin. Since when is it a crime to share harsh opinion or to offend someone?

I will say this; just because someone laughs at you, doesn't make them fanatical terrorists bent upon world domination.

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 20 Oct 2008 13:13

SandChigger wrote:Jacurutu...not for the faint of heart.

Yep, Bearded Kirklander had no "motives". None whatsoever.

At least that confirms him as a liar. Yeah, he "happened" upon Jacurutu, my ass. And if you believe that, I got some beachfront property for sale in Winnipeg.

Allow me to be prescient for a moment:

A not-so-anonymous private message on DN: Hey Bearded Kirklander, someone just made fun of you on Jacurutu. Maybe you should "happen" upon the site, instigate a false "bad experience" and then come crying back to Dumbnovels where we publically can kiss it all better.
BK: That's such an amazingly original idea that no one has ever done before in the history of the internet! Good thing Jacurutu is filled with naive message board noobs who've never seen anything like that ever happen anywhere else online. It's pure brilliant originality, like a KJA novel!

Post by **Freakzilla** » 20 Oct 2008 13:17

GamePlayer wrote:Yep, Bearded Kirklander had no "motives". None whatsoever. At least that confirms him as a liar. Yeah, he "happened" upon Jacurutu, my ass. And if you believe that, I got some beachfront property for sale in Winnipeg.

I wondered about that too. How many pages down do we show up on Google?

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 20 Oct 2008 13:19

Mr. Teg wrote:(I think there is more to the story than their usual love at first sight version. More a marriage of convenience.)

Mos def.

Honestly, they don't even seem that comfortable with each other. Look at the body language from any photo or video ... that's not two people who really enjoy each other's company.

I think the whole sordid saga of the new "Dune" books might actually be pretty simple:

1. Brian Herbert and/or the HLP needs money;

2. Everyone knows that he can't write anything on his own;

3. A hack who cares only about money is hired;

4. Hack hikes out one book per year ... idiot son is occasionally allowed to act like he's "editing" or something.

5. Books are sold to a lowest-common-denominator society that craves mediocrity.

6. Everyone cashes checks.

The rest, I suspect, is mostly smoke and mirrors. Frank's "notes" ... Bri-Bri and Kevvie "hitting it off right away" ... their alleged love for Dune ... it's all essentially meaningless. Their function is strictly to produce one book per year and make sure the word "Dune" is displayed in 100-point type on the covers.

That's it. It's just a relentless money machine. It really is that uncomplicated.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 20 Oct 2008 13:21

TheDukester wrote:The rest, I suspect, is mostly smoke and mirrors.

I think by including mirrors you give them too much credit for substance. It's just smoke.

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 20 Oct 2008 13:41

GamePlayer wrote:Hey Bearded Kirklander, someone just made fun of you on Jacurutu. Maybe you should "happen" upon the site, instigate a false "bad experience" and then come crying back to Dumbnovels where we publically can kiss it all better.

Yeah, it's really starting to seem like a set-up. For one thing, they guy didn't take off after receiving his initial broadsides; he only left after later getting a few measured, reasonable responses, which makes no sense at all. Unless, of course, the idea was to leave no matter what.

Similar thought: is anyone else thinking this guy is just a Byron sock-puppet? Beyond the fact that they seem to be having a mutual love-in over at The Shithole, there's some interesting circumstantial coincidences (the Herbert family, for instance, knows all about Kirkland, Washington).

Either way: total pussy. Not enough backbone to argue his case here; can't resist starting fake "what does OH mean?" threads over there.

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 20 Oct 2008 13:51

Baraka Bryan wrote:... he's got a fugly beard

As does Byron himself ... another guy who knows exactly where to find Kirkland.

Very interesting ...

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 20 Oct 2008 13:52

It's just way too convenient and too timely not to be orchestrated. I mean, the guy shows up within a day of being mentioned. I've seen this dozens of times. Yes, sometimes it is a hopeless innocent that doesn't know-no-better. Someone who really doesn't think or realize what it looks like from the perspective of others.

But 99 times out of 100, it's some jackass playing the game. Trust me, I know

Besides, even if BK was just some poor schmuck who ran away from all us big bad bullies, we're probably better off. I mean come on, who the hell is that timid? No one even "really" let him have it either. If he can't handle that, he's got bigger problems in his life than "that awful Jacurutu place".

Post by **Freakzilla** » 20 Oct 2008 14:01

Wow, y'all are so much more paranoid than me!

If it was KJA or a member of the HLP, I'm honored.

If it was an "innocent", y'all are probably right and he's offended way too easily.

Lundse · Post by **Lundse** » 20 Oct 2008 14:10

GamePlayer wrote:It's just way too convenient and too timely not to be orchestrated. I mean, the guy shows up within a day of being mentioned. I've seen this dozens of times. Yes, sometimes it is a hopeless innocent that doesn't know-no-better. Someone who really doesn't think or realize what it looks like from the perspective of others.

But 99 times out of 100, it's some jackass playing the game. Trust me, I know

Besides, even if BK was just some poor schmuck who ran away from all us big bad bullies, we're probably better off. I mean come on, who the hell is that timid? No one even "really" let him have it either. If he can't handle that, he's got bigger problems in his life than "that awful Jacurutu place".

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with most of that (many of the above posts, not specifically this one).

Maybe BK came here because of a mention someone passed along - this hardly constitutes a crime, or is in any way bad form. Maybe he got curious... 'Not coincidence' does not equal 'bad intentions'.

Secondly, being timid need not have anything to do with it. I would not want to hang around a bunch of people who badmouthed me all the time - I would either shout back or shake my head and leave.
Maybe his way of handling it is to not spend energy on it - something I am rarely able to do myself, but which I for one applaud. Why keep talking to people who have already decided you are a spy, an idiot, a sockpuppet and/or worse?

As I have said before, I think we should welcome anyone wishing to discuss Dune or just hang out.
Of course we should not back down from our opinions, but neither should we attack someone remorselessly just because he disagrees with him.

And seriously, the paranoia has got to go - every person who posts at DN is not Byron or the Hacks and if they did want to come here, they would create a new name.

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 20 Oct 2008 14:14

Paranoia would have to mean I care about DN

Seriously, I've just seen this happen, so I know what it looks like is all.

However, I do think you guys are underestimating just how much you're hated. If there's one thing I've learned about the internet, it's never underestimate the surprisingly large number of bored people out there who will actually waste significant portions of their lives trying to tear you down for nothing more than defending an opinion you strongly believe in.

A tangled "web" indeed!

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 20 Oct 2008 14:17

Then why leave after eventually getting some reasonable responses? Seriously, look at the chain of events; it just doesn't add up.

And about one-half of his posts right now at Arnoldo's House Of Idiocy are directly targeted at this site. He's sure getting a lot of mileage out of the subject.

Sorry, but I'm extremely suspicious. If it looks, waddles, and quacks like a duck ...

Post by **Freakzilla** » 20 Oct 2008 14:20

Lundse wrote:As I have said before, I think we should welcome anyone wishing to discuss Dune or just hang out.
Of course we should not back down from our opinions, but neither should we attack someone remorselessly just because he disagrees with him.

Agreed

Post by **Freakzilla** » 20 Oct 2008 14:21

TheDukester wrote:And about one-half of his posts right now at Arnoldo's House Of Idiocy are directly targeted at this site. He's sure getting a lot of mileage out of the subject.

Good! No such thing as bad publicity.

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 20 Oct 2008 14:53

Lundse
Go ahead, but I'll accept the possibility I'm mistaken rather than tolerate his crap. I've seen it played out too many times on too many other boards to care. And quite frankly, I think you're dramatizing the whole incident. If BK really was who he said he was, he'll either learn from this experience or he won't. That's life.

It's not like Jacurutu is under any kind of guise. This is an original Dune supporter website, made because supporting Frank Herbert works exclusively was a position politically corrected into abolition on DN. There will be no apology for it because some newb can't handle harsh opinion, most of all of himself. I've gone a few rounds with some of the folk here so don't think we each haven't been through it. We can deal with it, why can't BK?

You can't be friends with everyone Lundse.

Dukester
Precisely. No one here demanded he leave; quite the contrary. Freak Z was more than courteous and several of us, myself included, were trying advise BK but were ignored. Rather than consider, he just clammed up and cried "oh woe is me". I'd also point out that BK was all too willing to paint everyone here with the same brush. He's no angel.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 20 Oct 2008 15:45

well, the admins thought I was Arnoldo for a minute
can't even imagine a worse insult after understanding who he was,
and I'm still around

I am one out of 99 "innocent" internet virgins who stumbled into this
place thanks only to the link on DN - then got to reading it all and got
a little pissed off.

Then got alot pissed off, then simmered down.
I'll tell you right now, I'm NOT here to discuss Dune - I've been
discussing Dune for 30 years - been there, done there, but ya'll go right ahead.
I'm here only for and because of the controversy that I didn't
even know was going on - until I got here. I return because I've become
embroiled in the on-going drama, and some of you are incredibly funny.
Also, Byron has personally pissed me off.
And I AINT got nuthin better to do .....

Post by **Freakzilla** » 20 Oct 2008 15:57

LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 20 Oct 2008 16:04

see, Freak ? I really am a "noobie" -
I don't know if you're supporting me
or making fun of me.

either way's fine, tho.
plant them thumpers ...