Us VS Them

[TheDukester]

I agree. I was being a total idiot to think that there would be any possibility of getting you to accept that someone can really enjoy both the original series and the new books, and to argue here where there is a lack of tolerance or respect for any non OH sanctioned viewpoints.

Big fucking YAWN.

Same old bullshit. There's about eight threads here with your name in the title, just waiting for you to advance your viewpoint. There's some users here (Lundse, Thing, a couple of others) dying to go over the McDunes, point by point, with someone who is capable of defending them.

So don't bring your tired old "boo-hoo, everyone is mean" bullshit in here again. Either argue your points or go crawl back inside Anderson's colon.

[merkin muffley]

There's about eight threads here with your name in the title, just waiting for you to advance your viewpoint. There's some users here (Lundse, Thing, a couple of others) dying to go over the McDunes, point by point, with someone who is capable of defending them.

So don't bring your tired old "boo-hoo, everyone is mean" bullshit in here again. Either argue your points or go crawl back inside Anderson's colon.

I would like to see a real debate, but it sounds like you're just going to whine about people not agreeing with you.

[A Thing of Eternity]

RedBugPest - OH sanctioned viewpoint? I disagree with plenty of what's been said and done by the overall OH group, if you want an example - I wish Simon was still around, he at least knew better than to try and defend the new book intellectually (because they cannot be defended that way) and was very honest about the fact that they are utterly sub-par. He just said that he enjoyed them and was happy to have more Dune, and wasn't offended by the errors the same way the rest of us were.

You need to grow up. Just because someone disagrees with you vehemently does NOT mean that they are following some preset agenda, or that they've just dug in their heels and refuse to hear anyone else's viewpoint. The reason it seems that way to you is because you're nowhere near the first person to make any of the arguments you've made - we've already had those over and over and over - so OF COURSE it seems like we're just unwilling to even consider your position, because we've already done that, years ago, and have won the same arguments many times.

Quit being a child and accept that just because someone disagrees with you strongly doesn't mean that they aren't being open minded about other possibilities - there's more going on than you've seen, we've already opened our minds and rationally and fairly decided to reject the point of view of which you are just one more supporter.

EDIT: And Duke is right - Lundse and I have tried MANY times to have intelligent discussions about the new books, in very polite language, and every time we have been insulted and people have refused to defend the books in an intelligent way (sometimes I think that they THINK they are doing so, but really they're just repeating circular logic over and over).

[A Thing of Eternity]

This thread is my last remaining angry Dune activity. I really resent that place having turned out to be what it was. I miss being able to argue with people defending the originals, and Byron killed that, not by banning me, but by censoring all such discussions. Do you remember some of the threads we had there? I had epic, essay-like posts absolutely destroying people's arguments, even hard-core prequel defenders didn't want to argue any more. Even when Byron was banning people left and right there was at least some discussion happening, but eventually he just killed it all.

I miss it, I really do. The FTL thread was probably my greatest work over there, I'm glad it is preserved in the OH archives.

I love this place, but it really is just OH - which is fine. But someone would need to be a total idiot (RedBugPest) or very very ballsy to argue with us here.

I'm pretty sure that thread is archived over at T(A)U, Thing. In the "Archives" thread at the bottom of the main page.

Yes, it is, that's why I said I was was glad it was preserved in the OH archives.

[redbugpest]

I love this place, but it really is just OH - which is fine. But someone would need to be a total idiot (RedBugPest) or very very ballsy to argue with us here.

I agree. I was being a total idiot to think that there would be any possibility of getting you to accept that someone can really enjoy both the original series and the new books, and to argue here where there is a lack of tolerance or respect for any non OH sanctioned viewpoints. Of course that is your prerogative...

It's not so much that there are "OH-sanctioned viewpoints", but that people here tend to have the same opinions. This is Jacurutu; the people here are "cast out" for a reason - they expressed dissatisfaction about the new books on DN, and were banned.

If a poster here expresses an opinion that the new books are great SF, and worthy successors of the original series, they're not going to get a lot of support; consider the audience. They should expect that Jacurutu members engaging them in discussion will try to convince them that the new books are crap, giving long and impassioned reasons.

HBJ

It is the commonality of viewpoints that make them "sanctioned" here. But again, that is fine. You represent a community held together by your beliefs. When an outsider comes in and challenge any part of your belief system you band together to defend it, and to try to convert the outsider to your way of thinking. A perfectly natural thing for any community to do.

Unfortunately, I cannot accept all of your views, and will not change my opinions previously stated just to "fit in" to this community.

[merkin muffley]

...he enjoyed them and was happy to have more Dune, and wasn't offended by the errors the same way the rest of us were.

If someone had done something genuinely interesting with Dune, but it was inconsistent with things in FH, I wouldn't necessarily be offended. If it was good. If they changed something, and their reason was really lame, it would be a problem.

What is this "belief system" that you speak of?

[A Thing of Eternity]

...he enjoyed them and was happy to have more Dune, and wasn't offended by the errors the same way the rest of us were.

If someone had done something genuinely interesting with Dune, but it was inconsistent with things in FH, I wouldn't necessarily be offended. If it was good. If they changed something, and their reason was really lame, it would be a problem.

But it was bad, that's the issue. Simon understood that they did a bad job, he just didn't care. He is able to enjoy poorly written pulp and he didn't feel that the new garbage tarnished the originals, and while I dissagree with him, I respect his right to enjoy whatever fiction he wants, and that he was at least honest about it.

Yes he said some dumb things, and lost his temper a few times (who could blame him when he had to deal with the likes of us?) - and in the end he was run off the board, even though he'd stopped arguing in the defense of the new books at all, and I was sad to see him go. He was working on a Dune comic book, and would periodically pop in to post the latest page, and when he did so he would get flamed for things that in my opinion were in the past. But whatever, everyone has the right to whatever grudges they want and can flame whoever they want, but I still miss seeing the comic's progression.

[Omphalos]

Unfortunately, I cannot accept all of your views, and will not change my opinions previously stated just to "fit in" to this community.

Who cares? Nobody. That's right, nobody cares what you like. Like what you want, it's your right. The problem that most who engaged you before was that you misunderstand the first six novels. So when you say that you won't be bending your will to fit in, what we read is that you won't bother to read carefully or comprehend fully. Good luck with that.

[merkin muffley]

But it was bad, that's the issue.

Yeah, it was really bad.

[redbugpest]

RedBugPest - OH sanctioned viewpoint? I disagree with plenty of what's been said and done by the overall OH group, if you want an example - I wish Simon was still around, he at least knew better than to try and defend the new book intellectually (because they cannot be defended that way) and was very honest about the fact that they are utterly sub-par. He just said that he enjoyed them and was happy to have more Dune, and wasn't offended by the errors the same way the rest of us were.

I made the same argument, though I did not call them sub par. I beleive that they are entertaining in their own right, but are not in the same class as the originals

You need to grow up. Just because someone disagrees with you vehemently does NOT mean that they are following some preset agenda, or that they've just dug in their heels and refuse to hear anyone else's viewpoint. The reason it seems that way to you is because you're nowhere near the first person to make any of the arguments you've made - we've already had those over and over and over - so OF COURSE it seems like we're just unwilling to even consider your position, because we've already done that, years ago, and have won the same arguments many times.

Quit being a child and accept that just because someone disagrees with you strongly doesn't mean that they aren't being open minded about other possibilities - there's more going on than you've seen, we've already opened our minds and rationally and fairly decided to reject the point of view of which you are just one more supporter.

I think you should take your own advice. Those of us who like the new books have heard all the arguments from the OH, and have rationally and fairly decided to reject them. I'm not the one who referred to someone as being an "idiot" earlier in this thread. A childish gesture at best.

EDIT: And Duke is right - Lundse and I have tried MANY times to have intelligent discussions about the new books, in very polite language, and every time we have been insulted and people have refused to defend the books in an intelligent way (sometimes I think that they THINK they are doing so, but really they're just repeating circular logic over and over).

I felt at time that you both were engaging in circular logic arguments with me as well, while I was making what I felt was a reasonable point based on my interpretation of the books. For you to characterize all the other arguments as "unintelligent" is insulting to those of us putting forth our viewpoints. Lundse went as far as stating that there was no way that I could understand or like the original books as much as an OH because I liked the new books. I do not care for being told I am stupid, no mater how "polite" the language used.

And Dukester, do not characterize this as some "boo hoo" thread, because it is not. I just couldn't let the idiot reference go unanswered.

Merkin, I don't think a real debate is possible because i do not think that either side is really interested in listening.

[merkin muffley]

Merkin, I don't think a real debate is possible because i do not think that either side is really interested in listening.

Did you just call me a pubic wig!?

[redbugpest]

Unfortunately, I cannot accept all of your views, and will not change my opinions previously stated just to "fit in" to this community.

Who cares? Nobody. That's right, nobody cares what you like. Like what you want, it's your right. The problem that most who engaged you before was that you misunderstand the first six novels. So when you say that you won't be bending your will to fit in, what we read is that you won't bother to read carefully or comprehend fully. Good luck with that.

Well, since there is a lot that is open to individual interpretation in the first 6 novels, it is hard to characterize all opposing views as "misinterpretation". I have read carefully, and do comprehend the first 6 books, but that does not mean I have interpreted the message the same ways as you have.

[A Thing of Eternity]

I think you should take your own advice. Those of us who like the new books have heard all the arguments from the OH, and have rationally and fairly decided to reject them. I'm not the one who referred to someone as being an "idiot" earlier in this thread. A childish gesture at best.

Childish indeed, but in my opinion accurate based on your lack of basic logic and reading comprehension. And you are incorrect about one thing - most of you have not rationally rejected our arguments, you have decided to put them out of mind and ignore them. There is a big difference. You personally have attempted rather poorly to debate against our arguments, so you are a cut above the rest. Most of the people who like the new books either say "yeah, so what? why does any of this character building, attention to detail, fact checking, basic science, why does it matter? There were lasers, and they were cool" or they flat out ignore the arguments by just saying "nope you're wrong" and walking away.

I realize that you thought I was engaging in circular arguments, obviously we're not going to come to an agreement on who was doing what in those discussions.

Shall we start a new discussion about, say, how wrong KJABH were about the size of the scattering, and their understanding of where the Omnius signal "landed" (only thousands of years of travel time, but somehow ends up "outside the scattering?" or at least "far into the scattering"? And while it's somehow at the edge of the scattering, it's also somehow within the milky way?). Come on, that is non-defendable bad writing and I challenge you to show me otherwise. We'll start a new thread and keep the flamers out, it'll be just you, me and anyone else who can keep it civil.

How about it? Keen for a rematch? I'll keep it above the belt, you have my word.

EDIT: And I'll just have to hope everyone respects my request to stay out of the thread unless saying something constructive.

[TheDukester]

... I don't think a real debate is possible because i do not think that either side is really interested in listening.

Bleh. Talk about "circular." That's a non-answer that just gets you off the hook.

Whatever; you guys have fun. I'm going to stand by my earlier promise from a few months ago: if you guys want to discuss the books (Dune, McDune, or both), I will stay out of it. I will not add a single post. Word of honor.

OTOH, Pestie, if you're just going to stir up the waters, then I'll be firing with both barrels. Fair warning.

[merkin muffley]

EDIT: And I'll just have to hope everyone respects my request to stay out of the thread unless saying something constructive.

Yes
EDIT: brevity

[Serkanner]

A lot of bla bla

On which planet was Paul Atreides born?

Edit: after reading the last few posts I have to add that also I will refrain from name-calling. Let the discussion begin. I would really like to see Conway give an answer to ATO's question about the Scattering as well.

[TheDukester]

Tatooine.

[redbugpest]

...he enjoyed them and was happy to have more Dune, and wasn't offended by the errors the same way the rest of us were.

If someone had done something genuinely interesting with Dune, but it was inconsistent with things in FH, I wouldn't necessarily be offended. If it was good. If they changed something, and their reason was really lame, it would be a problem.

But what is "genuinely interesting" to you may not be "genuinely interesting" to me. If I found it to be lame, I wouldn't waste my time on it...

[redbugpest]

I realize that you thought I was engaging in circular arguments, obviously we're not going to come to an agreement on who was doing what in those discussions.

Shall we start a new discussion about, say, how wrong KJABH were about the size of the scattering, and their understanding of where the Omnius signal "landed" (only thousands of years of travel time, but somehow ends up "outside the scattering?" or at least "far into the scattering"? And while it's somehow at the edge of the scattering, it's also somehow within the milky way?). Come on, that is non-defendable bad writing and I challenge you to show me otherwise. We'll start a new thread and keep the flamers out, it'll be just you, me and anyone else who can keep it civil.

How about it? Keen for a rematch? I'll keep it above the belt, you have my word.

EDIT: And I'll just have to hope everyone respects my request to stay out of the thread unless saying something constructive.

Hope springs eternal, I guess.

At this time I will only commit to considering the idea.

[merkin muffley]

But what is "genuinely interesting" to you may not be "genuinely interesting" to me.

Isn't it your position that there's something good about the new Dune books?

If I found it to be lame, I wouldn't waste my time on it...

That's why I stopped reading in the middle of Paul of Dune, and threw it against the wall. This is also why I'm going to stay out of this debate. I'm still waiting for it to get going, though, and move beyond this debate about whether or not the debate should take place.

I promise that I will stay out of a serious discussion.

[lotek]

@Thing: i will not enter your circle of death
@RdBp: glad to have you back, just don't try to fit in too much that's lame

[A Thing of Eternity]

I realize that you thought I was engaging in circular arguments, obviously we're not going to come to an agreement on who was doing what in those discussions.

Shall we start a new discussion about, say, how wrong KJABH were about the size of the scattering, and their understanding of where the Omnius signal "landed" (only thousands of years of travel time, but somehow ends up "outside the scattering?" or at least "far into the scattering"? And while it's somehow at the edge of the scattering, it's also somehow within the milky way?). Come on, that is non-defendable bad writing and I challenge you to show me otherwise. We'll start a new thread and keep the flamers out, it'll be just you, me and anyone else who can keep it civil.

How about it? Keen for a rematch? I'll keep it above the belt, you have my word.

EDIT: And I'll just have to hope everyone respects my request to stay out of the thread unless saying something constructive.

Hope springs eternal, I guess.

At this time I will only commit to considering the idea.

Very well, I hope you take the challenge, as I feel very confident that everyone will do as I ask, because I am clearly requesting it. I doubt anyone will go against my simple request (I'm not asking them to be nice to you in other thread, just to leave us to truly debate in that one)

To be fair as well I think that you should also put forth a topic for debate that you feel confident about. The argument I've suggested is one I've thought out before (but no one has ever debated it with me, dispite my attempts to do so at DN), so I have a head start - I wish to give you a similar chance, as is only fair. You name it, and I will either debate it as best as I can, or I will admit that you are right about it (in which case you may pick another topic if you wish).

[A Thing of Eternity]

Also, I realize you've probably left for the day - but if you agree to this (or even to just half of it, if you don't want to debate my topic we can just do yours, but I will of course ask you why not), you have choice as to which argument we do first (they may end up both going at once too/eventually).

[redbugpest]

But what is "genuinely interesting" to you may not be "genuinely interesting" to me.

Isn't it your position that there's something good about the new Dune books?

If I found it to be lame, I wouldn't waste my time on it...

That's why I stopped reading in the middle of Paul of Dune, and threw it against the wall. This is also why I'm going to stay out of this debate. I'm still waiting for it to get going, though, and move beyond this debate about whether or not the debate should take place.

I promise that I will stay out of a serious discussion.

Yes, I think that the new books are entertaining on their own. I have eclectic tastes when it comes to reading. Not everything I read needs to be in the same class as Herbert, Asmov, Heinline, Niven, Clark and other Sci-Fi legends.

[merkin muffley]

I have eclectic tastes when it comes to reading. Not everything I read needs to be in the same class as Herbert, Asmov, Heinline, Niven, Clark and other Sci-Fi legends.

Fair enough. Have you met "A Thing of Eternity"?

I'll be over here.