Paul of Dune spoilers

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 18 Sep 2008 14:00

Kevin has presumably taken so many he's lost count.

KJA, pirate of franchises...and butts?

Lisan Al-Gaib · Post by **Lisan Al-Gaib** » 18 Sep 2008 20:19

Ampoliros wrote:
Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
Ampoliros wrote: SHIELDED ORNITHOPTERS!!!! What an effing retard!
(Hint KJA: Since you haven't read Dune...shields don't work in sandstorms...and they also call all worms in range and send them into a frenzy. So you know, that's bad.)

DUNE (Hawat and Fremen meeting chapter) wrote: Hawat's attention was caught by a flash of sun on metal to the south, a
'thopter plummeting there in a power dive, wings folded flat against its sides,
its jets a golden flare against the dark silvered gray of the sky. It plunged
like an arrow toward the troop carrier which was unshielded because of the
lasgun activity around it. Straight into the carrier the diving 'thopter
plunged.
It seems the thopters were shielded, but because of the lasgun activity the shield of this troop carrier thopter was disable.

Maybe only the body of the thopter was shielded to not affect the aerodynamic.

No, the point I'm trying to make is that shields in the desert call worms from across all territorial boundaries, and drives them into a rage.

They are also ineffectual during storms, which is what they are trying to escape in this scene, although the shield is basically just mentioned in the background.

This is not to mention that in this scene there are several factories on the ground at once, working together. I'm pretty damn sure a worm will react to that much activity pretty fast.

I agree with you about the points, but you have to realize that the thopters are shielded when they are flying, and probably when they land at the desert the shield is deactivated.

Here it is the whole passage:

DUNE wrote: Another 'thopter glided in over the cliff wall above Hawat. He drew in a
sharp breath as he saw it--a big troop carrier. It flew with the slow, spread-wing heaviness of a full load--like a giant bird coming to its nest.
In the distance, the purple finger of a lasgun beam flicked from one of the diving 'thopters. It laced across the sand, raising a sharp trail of dust.
"The cowards!" the Fremen beside Hawat rasped.
The troop carrier settled toward the patch of blue-clad bodies. Its wings crept out to full reach, began the cupping action of a quick stop.
Hawat's attention was caught by a flash of sun on metal to the south, a
'thopter plummeting there in a power dive, wings folded flat against its sides, its jets a golden flare against the dark silvered gray of the sky. It plunged like an arrow toward the troop carrier which was unshielded because of the lasgun activity around it. Straight into the carrier the diving 'thopter
plunged.

the troop carrier is a big thopter.[/quote]

Robspierre · Post by **Robspierre** » 18 Sep 2008 20:39

I had some free time after a test today so I sat in Barnes and Noble and read the whole thing in 45 minutes, oh my fucking god, I lost braincells trying to slog through it! It was horendous!

I'll be posting my Amazon review tomorrow

Rob

Lisan Al-Gaib · Post by **Lisan Al-Gaib** » 18 Sep 2008 21:54

Ampoliros wrote:It's a solari which iirc are the official coinage.

But yes, Fremen are above bribery and greed, which KJA admits right after Gurney offers the coin. He still throws it in, and in an INCONSISTANCEY WITH HIS OWN PREVIOUS PARAGRAPHS, KJA has a young fremen try repeatedly to get the coin until he drowns and Gurney saves him.

I'm not defending the hacks, but I read the chapter and the fremen didn't jump to water to get the solari coin (OMG, gold??), they jump because Gurney said that the first to get the coin would be blessed by Muad'dib.

But what made me mad was the Fremen portrayed like a retard.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 19 Sep 2008 00:48

I'm pretty sure the "blessed by Muad'dib" part was added in when someone pointed out to Kevin that Fremen are not subject to greed.

alternately if they believed Gurney about the blessing, which they sure do seem to believe Enno when he says he's blessed, they would all have gone for the coin.

As for the shield I know they have them on the ornithopters, even in the first Dune Leto tells Paul and Gurney to throw the shield out to make room for more men. The fact that they are actually using it out in the deep desert in this scene is the problem. It should not have been on for the approach or for the landing. If a worm is sensitive enough to come to the walking sound of a person, and a shield sends them into a frenzy calling them across territorial bounds, then no fremen in his right mind would fly an ornithopter over open desert with a shield on. Irregardless of practicality the risk would be too great.

The shield isn't even a dependent part of the scene, its thrown in for fluff. the problem is that this 'fluff' techno-babble shows that KJA writes for the scene, and doesn't care or know about how or why shields operate in Dune other than Lasgun + shield = Big BOOM! (They even got that part wrong too...)

Purge · Post by **Purge** » 19 Sep 2008 10:38

I am about 40 pages in. My issues thus far:

- The aforementioned issue regarding the shrine to Leto.

- Paul is nothing like Paul. Paul may have started an outsider, but he is a Fremen. The crap about the stillsuits is ridiculous. Can anyone imagine Paul thinking "they are crap, but I don't want to hurt their feelings"? And not that Paul isn't allowed to smile, but these instances seemed misplaced and trivial. Yeah, he is back on Caladan, but Caladan seems to already be behind him at points in Dune. Even if he had to make some kind of diplomatic mission to Caladan (which I never saw a need for), I doubt he would show such little control over himself.

- The buffet line line from Gurney was so stupid. And really, the whole idea of swimming lessons came off a little ridiculous.

- Jessica's nagging also seems uncharacteristic. And using voice on Paul? BTCHPLZ. He's the juggernaut!

- What, no comment or inner dialogue on the part of Paul during the sack of his birth-world?

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 19 Sep 2008 12:35

Ampoliros wrote:I'm pretty sure the "blessed by Muad'dib" part was added in when someone pointed out to Kevin that Fremen are not subject to greed.

alternately if they believed Gurney about the blessing, which they sure do seem to believe Enno when he says he's blessed, they would all have gone for the coin.

As for the shield I know they have them on the ornithopters, even in the first Dune Leto tells Paul and Gurney to throw the shield out to make room for more men. The fact that they are actually using it out in the deep desert in this scene is the problem. It should not have been on for the approach or for the landing. If a worm is sensitive enough to come to the walking sound of a person, and a shield sends them into a frenzy calling them across territorial bounds, then no fremen in his right mind would fly an ornithopter over open desert with a shield on. Irregardless of practicality the risk would be too great.

The shield isn't even a dependent part of the scene, its thrown in for fluff. the problem is that this 'fluff' techno-babble shows that KJA writes for the scene, and doesn't care or know about how or why shields operate in Dune other than Lasgun + shield = Big BOOM! (They even got that part wrong too...)

Debatable - this one could be called either way - Lisan is right, FH does set precedence for using shields on ornithopters in Dune, but you are right too, it is ridiculously dangerous if flying low.

Second off Irregardless IS NOT A WORD. The word regardless is already negative, adding an "ir" to the beginning turns it into a double negative. Huge pet peeve with this "word".

Don't let it happen again.

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 19 Sep 2008 13:51

Baraka Bryan wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:[Irregardless
what about nonirregardlessly

I guess that would work.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 19 Sep 2008 20:08

sorry sorry i'm an Old English student and multiple negatives seem to slip into my common speech (whew nice save, guess my education isn't wasted after all)

Purge wrote:- Jessica's nagging also seems uncharacteristic. And using voice on Paul? BTCHPLZ. He's the juggernaut!

I totally forgot about that part

She just used a 'hint' of voice iirc.

I agree about their characterization of 'Paul "Mom, It's Kaitain!" Muadru-dipshit'. He acts like he just won some call in contest and got handed the keys to the universe. Didn't they say he was dark in this? Wha? Being an idiot is Dark? (well i guess you could argue it about emo...)

Seems like he's totally forgotten what it means to be Muad'dib. He's forgotten alot. Like the fact that he already built a shrine to his dad.

now it's time for some more Dune 101.

Is it me, or does the Jihad seem like a total rip off of The Clone Wars? Literally. Replace Thorvald with Dooku, the insurrectionists with the Separatists, the fremen with clone troopers....same gimmick fights, same gimmicky planets, etc etc etc.

As we all know, Paul is prescient. It isn't perfect, but its pretty damn good. So my question is, how does he not just track down the separatists with prescience. he doesn't even need to fight them, he can contain them. Because they can only get around through the Guild, and the Guild has its balls securely in Paul Muad'dib's hand. One squeeze from Paul and every Separatist on every Guild ship finds himself in orbit of Arrakis with a few thousand angry Fremen storming on board.

I don't think they stopped to consider how difficult (and how perfect a system this is for keeping planets in line) it is to wage a war over a universe when you have no control over where you can go. Sure a Steersman or Navigator can hide them from Muad'dib's prescience, but Muad'dib's mentant abilities would say, hmm, they were here, now they are there, someone gave them a ride. Stil, go kill a few navigators at random and Otheym, go park over that spice blow again.

Guild: Shit! er,....we meant to bring them to Arrakis sooner, m'lord.

For what it's worth, I think this is why Frank didn't show much of the Jihad.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 19 Sep 2008 22:10

I can't believe I'm going to write this, but moral aspects aside, an account of the deaths of sixty-one billion human beings is ultimately not very interesting. Who really can fathom such a thing? And besides, given the parameters of the story, there are only so many ways the killing (and planetary sterilizations) could be accomplished. As someone else has pointed out, the Fremen were vicious, but not barbarians.

I think that's why FH didn't describe the Jihad; he knew there's no way to do it justice.

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 19 Sep 2008 22:56

SandChigger wrote:I can't believe I'm going to write this, but moral aspects aside, an account of the deaths of sixty-one billion human beings is ultimately not very interesting.

Bingo. I've been harping on this ever since I first heard that such a disaster as PoD would actually be published.

It's a story best told off-stage. Clearly. A talented writer would understand this.

Which explains a lot ...

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 19 Sep 2008 22:58

Forgot to include this in that last post:

Messiah begins twelve years after the events in Dune (which ended 10193 AG), or in 10205 AG. It's interesting to note just how little of that twelve year period is actually covered by the four "Emperor Muad'Dib" sections of PoD:

I. 10194 AG

III. 10197 AG

V. 10198 AG

VII. 10198 AG

Events from three years only.

(And the "Young Paul" sections all occur during one year: 10187 AG.)

Laphtiya · Post by **Laphtiya** » 20 Sep 2008 02:23

Once again I went an bought this book not knowing why. I've flicked through it and I know I am going to be dissapointed yet again. From what people here have been saying as well, it just shows that they didn't read Dune at all. Or if they did, they just couldn't understand it at all. Paul would never think a Stillsuit is crap and wouldnt worry about hurting their feelings. I think he annoyed the Fremen slightly in Dune when he said he wouldnt challenge Stillgar.

Also like Purge said, Caladan was behind him. He was a Fremen at the end of Dune. If he would be as Purge said he is on Caladan then the Emperor Muad'dib would have made Caladan the home of the Imperium NOT Arrakis. Just sounds like another pocket filler to me, KJA probably needed a new car or wanted to decorate his house for free again.

Alot of ppl over in DN are saying this book it very good but looking over there is just seems like a forum filled with Yes men, or Face Dancer replacements that KJA sent out to make it look like his work is actually good to please the HLC

leagued · Post by **leagued** » 20 Sep 2008 07:35

Or every negative post gets deleted.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 20 Sep 2008 10:33

SandChigger wrote:I can't believe I'm going to write this, but moral aspects aside, an account of the deaths of sixty-one billion human beings is ultimately not very interesting. Who really can fathom such a thing? And besides, given the parameters of the story, there are only so many ways the killing (and planetary sterilizations) could be accomplished. As someone else has pointed out, the Fremen were vicious, but not barbarians.

I think that's why FH didn't describe the Jihad; he knew there's no way to do it justice.

I've been thinking about how Fremen tribal conflicts would have worked. We know with Jacurutu the tribes banded together to wipe another one out, pouring their water on the sands.

It seems this form of retaliation mirrors the great convention; if you are killing solely for water then we are going to band together and kick your ass.

What do they do in the case that all discussion and diplomacy fails? I imagine the council of Naibs would enforce a peace, as rival tribes in open conflict would draw too much attention and risk them all. [Tribes would know this as well] So what? Naib vs Naib? Winner gets his terms?

-anyway- this is all leading to the main point-

The Jihad.
I've already stated that because of the Guild's monopoly Paul would have been able to suppress many rebellions simply by blockading the planet.
[That weapons cache on the Mountain planet? BLOCKADE]

oops gotta run, i'll be back to edit this later. In the mean time i'd like to hear other's thoughts.

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 20 Sep 2008 15:35

I always assumed that it would be pointless to tell this part of the story, because A: as Chig said, it's a bit too large of a scope, hard to really grasp and have impact, and B: I had the impression that after the end scene of Dune Paul pretty much had won. The whole Jihad happened because of it's own momentum. I didn't really think of it as a war that Paul struggled to win, or worried what anyone thought or tried to minimize in any way. I had the impression that he pretty much just sat there in depression waiting for it to burn itself out rather than activly trying to push it forward.

I could be wrong though.

Lisan Al-Gaib · Post by **Lisan Al-Gaib** » 20 Sep 2008 16:57

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I always assumed that it would be pointless to tell this part of the story, because A: as Chig said, it's a bit too large of a scope, hard to really grasp and have impact, and B: I had the impression that after the end scene of Dune Paul pretty much had won. The whole Jihad happened because of it's own momentum. I didn't really think of it as a war that Paul struggled to win, or worried what anyone thought or tried to minimize in any way. I had the impression that he pretty much just sat there in depression waiting for it to burn itself out rather than activly trying to push it forward.

I could be wrong though.

I had that impression too. But at DM, Muad'dib or Korba (I don't remember) said many worlds had been sterilized and billion of lifes had been taken. So, I believe that really existed a huge war between the Fremen and the rebel worlds/or Houses. A war so big that Muad'dib couldn't control all the extension of it, only minimize the damage.

Because of that, the whole scene of Gurney training Fremen at the pool is idiot.

First: Why gurney would involve himself on it? He had Caladan to rule, and he was the master of Paul,I think he would have given a shit for the Jihad.

Second: Why would Paul order to create a pool to train Fremens??? The Jihad isn't in his hands, and even if it is, he was openly agaisnt it, he never hide that from his heads.

Third: A pool to training only 50 fremens each time? What type of strategy is that?

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 20 Sep 2008 22:12

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I always assumed that it would be pointless to tell this part of the story, because A: as Chig said, it's a bit too large of a scope, hard to really grasp and have impact, and B: I had the impression that after the end scene of Dune Paul pretty much had won. The whole Jihad happened because of it's own momentum. I didn't really think of it as a war that Paul struggled to win, or worried what anyone thought or tried to minimize in any way. I had the impression that he pretty much just sat there in depression waiting for it to burn itself out rather than activly trying to push it forward.

I could be wrong though.
I had that impression too. But at DM, Muad'dib or Korba (I don't remember) said many worlds had been sterilized and billion of lifes had been taken. So, I believe that really existed a huge war between the Fremen and the rebel worlds/or Houses. A war so big that Muad'dib couldn't control all the extension of it, only minimize the damage.

Because of that, the whole scene of Gurney training Fremen at the pool is idiot.

First: Why gurney would involve himself on it? He had Caladan to rule, and he was the master of Paul,I think he would have given a shit for the Jihad.

Second: Why would Paul order to create a pool to train Fremens??? The Jihad isn't in his hands, and even if it is, he was openly agaisnt it, he never hide that from his heads.

Third: A pool to training only 50 fremens each time? What type of strategy is that?

Don't forget : It's coming from the same man that said a fleet of robots could surround the Scattering with ships having fucking light speed engine...

Speed does not seem to be an issue for KJA...

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 20 Sep 2008 22:30

Dude, show some respect: he has a degree in physics.

...

...

...

Ah, damnit, I tried so hard not to laugh. Where do you think he got that thing, anyway? Northeastern Guatemala University? The University of Teh Internets?

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 20 Sep 2008 22:36

Rakis wrote:Speed does not seem to be an issue for KJA...

Yeah, didn't 'Becca blog on MySpace about him being a regular little mink in bed?

"Unh-unh-OH! OK, I'm back off to the woods with my dickaphone!"

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 20 Sep 2008 23:52

Well we know that Fremen troops did have campaigns on some planets, otherwise none of them would have seen a sea.

Pretty damn sure Kaitain would have been surrendered as part of Shaddam's holdings. Either that or Kaitain would have been a bitch to take.

Sterilization might have occurred on planets that committed blasphemy against Muad'dib. Active resistance such as destroying their own manufacturing or industry, etc.

All in all I do think it was best that Frank just told us It happened, deal, and went on with the story.

One more thing, where the fuck are all these Suk Doctors coming from? anytime anyone is hurt, Presto, Suk Doctor. Sorry I was under the impression that Suk doctors were rare and expensive.....

Post by **Omphalos** » 21 Sep 2008 00:45

SandChigger wrote:
Rakis wrote:Speed does not seem to be an issue for KJA...
Yeah, didn't 'Becca blog on MySpace about him being a regular little mink in bed?

"Unh-unh-OH! OK, I'm back off to the woods with my dickaphone!"

I thought she called him "The Great Re-doer?"

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 21 Sep 2008 06:23

Ampoliros wrote:One more thing, where the fuck are all these Suk Doctors coming from? anytime anyone is hurt, Presto, Suk Doctor. Sorry I was under the impression that Suk doctors were rare and expensive.....

Yeah.

And I loved the bit about Paul seeing Tleilaxu scavenging corpses on the battlefield, apparently "taking samples".

Gotta make sure the new reader is all primed and ready for when the ghola shows up.

Lisan Al-Gaib · Post by **Lisan Al-Gaib** » 21 Sep 2008 11:48

SandChigger wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:One more thing, where the fuck are all these Suk Doctors coming from? anytime anyone is hurt, Presto, Suk Doctor. Sorry I was under the impression that Suk doctors were rare and expensive.....
Yeah.

And I loved the bit about Paul seeing Tleilaxu scavenging corpses on the battlefield, apparently "taking samples".

Gotta make sure the new reader is all primed and ready for when the ghola shows up.

OMG, will we have a Clone wa..., I mean Ghola wars?

"All the Fremen troops are dead. Our forces weren't strong enough agaisnt Sardukars. But Muad'dib have his last card: The Ultimate Fremen Ghola soldier with silver eyes!" - Wait for it in Irulan of Dune!

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 21 Sep 2008 11:49

I just read the Bludd Assassination Plot section.

WTF? Bludd is both mentally insane and a complete imbecile? He organizes a massive terrorist attack just so he can save ONE character and be a HERO? His Swordmaster skills allow him to come up with a great plot that could only be hatched by two people in the Imperium, and it just so happens that the other one is in charge of the investigation, and hates you. Bravo.

I'm wondering now if KJA is attempting to create a Psychic Black Hole, because my head almost exploded reading this.... I don't know, I'm at a loss for a proper metaphor. Its as if the Empire State Building suddenly transformed into Godzilla and exploded killing everyone in NYC except Bloomberg. All that's left is a note from Godzilla saying he hopes he's remembered as the Hero who saved NYC!

Plus he doesnt care if he's famous or infamous, he just wants to be remembered. So paul grants him a HUGE PUBLIC EXECUTION.
NOOOOO! Frank would have had Paul exonerate him, then dissapear him and never mention him again leaving even the readers wonder what horrible fate poor old Bludd recieved while at the same time applauding the fact that Paul has Bludd achieve the exact opposite of his intention.

Oh, wait, Frank already did that, in GEoD, when Leto gets attacked by Face Dancers.

Thallo...let that name forever die. 'I'm the Emo Twitzsac Hackerson. I like hurting myself and talking about how perfectly imperfect I am but I'm still better than you. I get killed by a little girl who thinks wrestling and kung-fu movies are real.'

Marie Fenring. could someone please tell me what the fuck is up with her that makes her sooooo uber special? She almost tops KJA's Darksaber for dumb-fuckist superweapon ever made. Nice River Tam rip-off scene though.

I don't know if this is just me, but one person versus 12 in a small room with no lights? the one person has the upper hand. the others have to consider their target, she doesn't. All the noise and movement made works for her and against them.