Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I realized why I didn't jump in here debating like I normally do - I don't actually care one way or the other. If Osama's recent death was faked, oh well. If it was real, doesn't really effect me personally anyways.

Of all the crazy things I'm sure the governments of the world are up to in secret, this rates pretty low on the shock/danger meter frankly.

Serkanner wrote:Al-Queda just confirmed that OBL has been kiled by the American raid last Sunday ... Must be a conspiracy too I guess.

Yes. Our government has been conspiring with Al-Queda this whole time the keep both populations in check. Haven't any of you read 1984? Come on, it's all so obvious.

Argh... lol

You do not go on a dialysis machine until your kidneys fail (kidney function below 15%). A person could live for years and years before they fail completely.

Even if the cave was damp, what type of infection was he at risk for?

The voice of reason is here.

The Obama announcement of Osama's killing interrupted the Celebrity Apprentice, at a crucial moment. I happen to know because I was watching at the time. And who hosts Apprentice? Donald J. Trump the Third. Coincidence? I think not. Kojiro, see if you can dig up some stuff on this.

maybe al qeda will charter a deep diving bell and go look for his body, since they did confirm his death and have vowed to make america pay for it.

Mandy wrote:Argh... lol

You do not go on a dialysis machine until your kidneys fail (kidney function below 15%). A person could live for years and years before they fail completely.

Even if the cave was damp, what type of infection was he at risk for?

I just heard a report today that there wasn't any medical equipment in the house he was "killed" in. So that proves that he wasn't even in there. Body double?

Kojiro, you want to peddle the conspiracy bullshit, you do it in another thread in the politics forum. Stop pissing all over everything. You don't believe it really happened, fine but remember, there are people who actually do research and data analysis, using sources beyond internet searches, who know a fuckload more than you do. This is NOT the thread to go off and act like a fucking twat.

Excuse me, all the girls are here tonight and are demanding my attention.

Rob

Kojiro wrote:

Serkanner wrote:Al-Queda just confirmed that OBL has been kiled by the American raid last Sunday ... Must be a conspiracy too I guess.

I never put much stock into those alleged audio tapes of bin Laden. They all come out of SITE and never anywhere else.

You have to be fucking kidding me. Are you an idiot by choice?

Kojiro wrote:

Lundse wrote:Oh no. You are the one claiming he was already dead, and therefore my arguments are invalid. You made a claim, you prove it. That's how this works.

No, Obama made the claim that he had Osama killed. He has to prove that. That's how it really works.

You are simply not paying attention, are you?

I have told you, and repeated, why I believe Osama was just recently killed:
- Obama would not say so, if there was any chance in hell Osama was still alive.
- Therefore, either Osama has been dead for a while (and Obama knows it), or he was really just killed.

Now we are discussing which of these option is more likely. You claim, as if it were a god-given fact, that Osama was already dead. Fine. That is what you call a premise that you would like to enter into the discussion as a fact. I dispute that fact. I ask you to tell my why I should believe it. You repeat "Oabama should prove stuff" once again, without any regard to where the discussion is at now. I begin to suspect you are being deliberately dense. Please, tell me why we should assume Osama is dead!

Lundse wrote:

Kojiro wrote:The whole GOP thing needed a scary monster like Osama bin Laden out to get us to justify their war.

And, according to you, they were fine with handing the apparently easy-to-play card of "we just got Bin Laden" over to the Democrats...

Then they'd have to explain their end and also implicate themselves in the lie. "Uh... Osama is lying because we uh... also lied about this and...." "Say wut?" It would not only destroy Obama's credibility but their own. Yeah. Brilliant. [/quote]

Notice how you repsonse makes no sense? I was not they should call Osama on their lie, was I? Why are you responding to me as if I did? Have you gone from wanting to decide the fact of the matter before hand ("Oh, Osama was always dead, God told me") to you deciding what I believe?

I said that if Obama is lying now, why didn't Bush do during his re-election or McCain's campaign? And you are talking about... I don't even know...

Why did the Bush administration let this opportunity a victory in public opinion pass on to the democrats in the first place? Why didn't they claim to have killed Osama? Or just make a public formal announcement that he was dead, so Osama could not be the one to "kill him"?

Kojiro wrote:Yeah, okay and now we have to explain when he moved in and how that escaped notice of all the military intelligence bases surrounding that house and also how he was able to purchase the dialysis machine without any records raising flags and how none of his neighbors seemed to catch on and so forth. Seriously, that neighborhood was smackdab in the middle of spy city for chrissake... and they didn't know until now?

See, now you're talking. Unfortunately, you are creating secondary arguments, and fleeing the original one. So until you respond, or at least show you understand, that one, can we let up on the secondary stuff?
But in short:
1) Pakistan. Not an ally of the US. Elements sympathetic to Bin Laden. Dialysis machines not tracked worldwide (WTF?)
2) If you are right that this location is unlikely, you are making Obama's argument for him - why, when they could have chosing more or less any location as "here's where we got him" did they chose this one?

Kojiro wrote:So far it's "It's his DNA because the gub'ment sed so."

No. That's how you would like to believe the argument goes. Try to read what people actually write, and respond to that. If you cannot understand it, just don't respond.

This is becoming a treasure trove of logical fallacies:

Kojiro wrote:Continued position of power or jobless...

False dilemma!...

And no one talked during the WMD fiasco why? Granting that you're right about the false choice, you have failed to answer why none of Bush's people spoke up about the WMD lie.[/quote]

I tackled the bad WMD analogy elsewhere, don't try to clutter up this line of argument with that nonsense. The argument went:

Lundse: "If this is a lie, everyone involved is lying too. There are so many people involved, in so many layers of power, that this is unlikely in the extreme."
Kojiro: "Obama threatened to fire them!"
Lundse: "Really, high-ranking officials are unable to threated to go to the press, get rich on a book deal, get a job in the goverment they helped usher in, after they felled the previous lying one? Lowly soldiers or lab assistants cannot get a job or book deal after rattling on the President?"
Kojiro: "Continued position of power or jobless...!"
Lundse: "I said, that is not the only options, as I just made clear! False dilemma."
Kojiro: "WMDs!"

Address the argument, or shut up. Why is noone talking, why is Obama seemingly unafraid of this happening?

Kojiro wrote:

You offer the following arguments, why Bin Laden must be dead:
- No sign of life from him for ten years.
- Not surprising, we know he was hiding.

So, wait... let me get this straight... with all of the technology we have today to monitor communication, not once did a red flag raise up until now? Are you freaking kidding me?

Sigh. First of all, he would not use any of these means of communication, for those exact reasons. Do you think he has a hotmail account, a phone number? Secondly, if a red flag was raised, would the public (and hence Al-Queda) have been told? Who is kidding who?

Kojiro wrote:

- Comments from government officials that they were becoming certain that he might be dead.
- Speculation. And if your own theory is true, you are saying the same government who wants him alive in people's mind as a bogeymand, and who might need him for a quick fix in public opinion is at the same time telling us he might be dead already. WTF?

Take a look at that list.... how many were on Bush's cabinet? Hell, a few of the sources were French intelligence. Are you implying that I'm trying to say the zombie Osama conspiracy spans that far? If you are, then you'd definitely be putting words in my mouth.

No. First, I told you this is speculation and hearsay. That someone postulated, claimed or guessed is not enough, no matter who they are. What evidence are they bringing?

Secondly, and this one got you confused, I see: I am saying that if you are correct, then the same goverment did two things:
1) Used Osama as a bogey-man, someone we were supposed to be afraid was "somewhere out there", ready to strike - a reason to go to war, etc.
2) Went out and said that he was probably dead.

The goverment officials saying Osama might be dead are not, I am saying, to be trusted without evidence. But they are an indication that 1 above is not their game plan, as you blithely assume.

Kojiro wrote:

None of these hold up, as you can see.

Says you.

Actually, I showed it.

Kojiro wrote:

[My response to the WMD analogy...]

Well, people are starting to really call Obama on it. Let's see how long the house of cards lasts.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nation ... 7272.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... 0263.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These have nothing to do with the WMD argument. Nothing.

I look forward to the showcasing of the video evidence, I am sure you will then show up here and tell us how those Republicans were lifelong plants and doubleagents working for Obama since before his birth.

Kojiro wrote:

PS: I am not asking you to prove a negative.

Really? Because that's what it looks like.

It fucking well isn't! And if you have read the next sentence after that quote there, you would have seen:

"I am asking you to prove your positive statement "Osama was dead already"."

I have told you this again and again, and you keep retreating from doing it by pushing the burden of proof around. Or randomly bringing up WMDs. Or misinterpreting what was written.

Where is your proof that Osama was dead already? I cannot say it any clearer, Kojiro. You claim he was dead, you prove that. When you have utterly failed to do so, everything falls neatly into place.

Kojiro wrote:

PPS: That guy on the ground, with the squirt gun. Where did you get that picture?

That was one of the Reuters photos. Allegedly he was a terrorist guarding bin Laden. Yeah, that water pistol looks very dangerous indeed. The SEALs must have been recruited from the NYPD.

Then why did you make comments that he did not look like Bin Laden?

Also, do you think that you and your conspiracy buddies were the first one to notice the squirt gun? Do you think that you have uncovered some new piece of evidence? Because it sounds like it...
I have no clue where this picture is from, nor do I care. I, or Obama, do not need it, nor have we made it part of any reasoning. But lets assume Reuters have good reason to bring it. There were children in the house. Children. They may, and this is a huge leap of faith here, have had toys. The squirt gun is no damning evidence that you have found, exposing a conspiracy. It is just something lying on the flor where the guy fell. It does not prove anything re. who he is, unless a squirt gun would be absolutely out of place in the location the picture is claimed to be taken.

Kojiro wrote:

Serkanner wrote:Al-Queda just confirmed that OBL has been kiled by the American raid last Sunday ... Must be a conspiracy too I guess.

I never put much stock into those alleged audio tapes of bin Laden. They all come out of SITE and never anywhere else.

So the Al-Queda tapes are doctored by the conspiracy too? How about me and Serkanner, are we on the payroll for the New World Order too?

I've not really been following this much this week as we've had Scottish Parliament, Local elections and a referendum to re-jig the voting system to another first past the post counting method but this time with a twist of lime.

My 2cents worth is I don't trust Politicians, there are as a group lairs, and lied to constantly, and statements made without supporting evidence ain't worth the paper they're printed on. There was a raid, who was killed doing what, reaching for what or hiding behind whom I don't know. Just don't be too surprised if all the brave, committed soldiers currently in Afghanistan have a wee stop off in Libya before making it home. Speaking of which has dropped of the headlines just as the military advisors went in.

Nekhrun wrote:

Mandy wrote:Argh... lol

You do not go on a dialysis machine until your kidneys fail (kidney function below 15%). A person could live for years and years before they fail completely.

Even if the cave was damp, what type of infection was he at risk for?

I just heard a report today that there wasn't any medical equipment in the house he was "killed" in. So that proves that he wasn't even in there. Body double?

Better check the damp caves in the area. I bet you'll find one loaded with equipment and at least one hot nurse. Gaddafi's hanging out there too.

Mandy wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:

Mandy wrote:Argh... lol

You do not go on a dialysis machine until your kidneys fail (kidney function below 15%). A person could live for years and years before they fail completely.

Even if the cave was damp, what type of infection was he at risk for?

I just heard a report today that there wasn't any medical equipment in the house he was "killed" in. So that proves that he wasn't even in there. Body double?

Better check the damp caves in the area. I bet you'll find one loaded with equipment and at least one hot nurse. Gaddafi's hanging out there too.

Now the Pentagon is releasing videos that "show Osama over the last few years". Looks like they're trying to "prove" that "he" was really "alive" before they "killed him" last week. Shit, any 14 year old with a computer could've faked those videos.

Lundse wrote:

Kojiro wrote:

Lundse wrote:Oh no. You are the one claiming he was already dead, and therefore my arguments are invalid. You made a claim, you prove it. That's how this works.

No, Obama made the claim that he had Osama killed. He has to prove that. That's how it really works.

You are simply not paying attention, are you?

I have told you, and repeated, why I believe Osama was just recently killed:
- Obama would not say so, if there was any chance in hell Osama was still alive.
- Therefore, either Osama has been dead for a while (and Obama knows it), or he was really just killed.

Now we are discussing which of these option is more likely. You claim, as if it were a god-given fact, that Osama was already dead. Fine. That is what you call a premise that you would like to enter into the discussion as a fact. I dispute that fact. I ask you to tell my why I should believe it. You repeat "Oabama should prove stuff" once again, without any regard to where the discussion is at now. I begin to suspect you are being deliberately dense. Please, tell me why we should assume Osama is dead!

Dead when? Ha ha ha.

Seriously, I'm likely going to have to argue this in the later points once again. Please follow along. Obama made the claim he recently ordered Osama's death (in a story that keeps changing no less) and he has yet to provide proof of that.

Lundse wrote:

Kojiro wrote:The whole GOP thing needed a scary monster like Osama bin Laden out to get us to justify their war.

And, according to you, they were fine with handing the apparently easy-to-play card of "we just got Bin Laden" over to the Democrats...

Then they'd have to explain their end and also implicate themselves in the lie. "Uh... Osama is lying because we uh... also lied about this and...." "Say wut?" It would not only destroy Obama's credibility but their own. Yeah. Brilliant.

Notice how you repsonse makes no sense? I was not they should call Osama on their lie, was I? Why are you responding to me as if I did? Have you gone from wanting to decide the fact of the matter before hand ("Oh, Osama was always dead, God told me") to you deciding what I believe?

Sorry, it looked at the time that you were trying to argue that the former administration should call on him despite that they've been sitting on his death for years. It's already too late to keep it from being passed to the Democrats. In any case, I'm not really fond of either parties and most of their politics just tends to run together in my eyes. But that's a completely different discussion and won't be elaborated further.

I said that if Obama is lying now, why didn't Bush do during his re-election or McCain's campaign? And you are talking about... I don't even know...

First, Saddam Hussein turned up. Two, they likely thought their bogeyman tactic would continue to work in McCain's favor. Remember the hundred years in Iraq thing? They wanted us to perceive a continuing threat, but oops... no one liked the idea of another wartime president. It's just too bad we wound up with one anyway regardless. Now we're in Libya and... ahh... getting sidetracked again. As you can see, I'm not fond of pointless wars.

Kojiro wrote:Yeah, okay and now we have to explain when he moved in and how that escaped notice of all the military intelligence bases surrounding that house and also how he was able to purchase the dialysis machine without any records raising flags and how none of his neighbors seemed to catch on and so forth. Seriously, that neighborhood was smackdab in the middle of spy city for chrissake... and they didn't know until now?

See, now you're talking. Unfortunately, you are creating secondary arguments, and fleeing the original one. So until you respond, or at least show you understand, that one, can we let up on the secondary stuff?
But in short:
1) Pakistan. Not an ally of the US. Elements sympathetic to Bin Laden. Dialysis machines not tracked worldwide (WTF?)
2) If you are right that this location is unlikely, you are making Obama's argument for him - why, when they could have chosing more or less any location as "here's where we got him" did they chose this one?

Well you were the one that brought up the house he was allegedly living in. And already I've stated, if true... when did he move in? He wasn't living in that house for certain in 2001 or 2002. So when was this alleged switch made? See... you don't know, I don't know. How long was he still in the caves? (Seriously, worst place ever to hide when you need medical attention.) Then... this house... in the middle of spyland. And don't pretend it was only Pakistani spies, as Pakistan is allegedly an ally of the United States and U.S. military and intelligence were stationed there as well. If he really lived there, it's absolutely miraculous that he escaped detection for however long he was allegedly living there with not even his neighbors noticing something was up.

Also, are you implying that you can walk up to any ol' hospital and ask for a dialysis machine without questions asked? Presumably there are medical records at the very least.

Kojiro wrote:So far it's "It's his DNA because the gub'ment sed so."

No.

Yes.

Unless you have the names of the lab and talked to which scientists did the bloodwork.

This is becoming a treasure trove of logical fallacies:

Kojiro wrote:Continued position of power or jobless...

False dilemma!...

And no one talked during the WMD fiasco why? Granting that you're right about the false choice, you have failed to answer why none of Bush's people spoke up about the WMD lie.

I tackled the bad WMD analogy elsewhere, don't try to clutter up this line of argument with that nonsense. The argument went:

Lundse: "If this is a lie, everyone involved is lying too. There are so many people involved, in so many layers of power, that this is unlikely in the extreme."
Kojiro: "Obama threatened to fire them!"
Lundse: "Really, high-ranking officials are unable to threated to go to the press, get rich on a book deal, get a job in the goverment they helped usher in, after they felled the previous lying one? Lowly soldiers or lab assistants cannot get a job or book deal after rattling on the President?"
Kojiro: "Continued position of power or jobless...!"
Lundse: "I said, that is not the only options, as I just made clear! False dilemma."
Kojiro: "WMDs!"

Address the argument, or shut up. Why is noone talking, why is Obama seemingly unafraid of this happening?

Now you're being obtuse. Why was Bush not worried no one would talk about his Iraqi WMDs? I gave you a theory, but you said... "blah blah press anyway blah." Then my only other theory is that they feel just that loyal to the man. Whatever kept Bush's staff silent about the phony WMD intelligence seems to also be working for Obama. We can speculate for hours on this point, but that doesn't change that his staff isn't talking and neither did Bush's.

Kojiro wrote:

You offer the following arguments, why Bin Laden must be dead:
- No sign of life from him for ten years.
- Not surprising, we know he was hiding.

So, wait... let me get this straight... with all of the technology we have today to monitor communication, not once did a red flag raise up until now? Are you freaking kidding me?

Sigh. First of all, he would not use any of these means of communication, for those exact reasons. Do you think he has a hotmail account, a phone number? Secondly, if a red flag was raised, would the public (and hence Al-Queda) have been told? Who is kidding who?

We're told these terrorists are using web pages and email and radio and phones over and over again. Or do you only believe SITE when it conveniences you?

Kojiro wrote:

- Comments from government officials that they were becoming certain that he might be dead.
- Speculation. And if your own theory is true, you are saying the same government who wants him alive in people's mind as a bogeymand, and who might need him for a quick fix in public opinion is at the same time telling us he might be dead already. WTF?

Take a look at that list.... how many were on Bush's cabinet? Hell, a few of the sources were French intelligence. Are you implying that I'm trying to say the zombie Osama conspiracy spans that far? If you are, then you'd definitely be putting words in my mouth.

No. First, I told you this is speculation and hearsay. That someone postulated, claimed or guessed is not enough, no matter who they are. What evidence are they bringing?

What evidence is Obama bringing?

Excuse me while I put more credence in the French intelligence reports and I'll get to that on this next point.

Secondly, and this one got you confused, I see: I am saying that if you are correct, then the same goverment did two things:
1) Used Osama as a bogey-man, someone we were supposed to be afraid was "somewhere out there", ready to strike - a reason to go to war, etc.
2) Went out and said that he was probably dead.

The goverment officials saying Osama might be dead are not, I am saying, to be trusted without evidence. But they are an indication that 1 above is not their game plan, as you blithely assume.

Since when are all government departments harmoniously one? Since when is France's intelligence part of our government? Like I said, at least a few of those reports came from the French. Franch =/= Bush cabinet. FBI counterterrorism expert =/= Bush cabinet. Medical expert =/= Bush cabinet. And so on. Quite a few of those people had very little connection to Bush. I'm telling you Bush needed the bogeyman, not the government as a whole. Or France. I'm sorry if that's too difficult of a concept for you to grasp.

Considering that France was one of the countries that was skeptical of Bush's WMDs in Iraq, it will be French intelligence that I will be trusting.

Kojiro wrote:

None of these hold up, as you can see.

Says you.

Actually, I showed it.

Liar.

Kojiro wrote:

[My response to the WMD analogy...]

Well, people are starting to really call Obama on it. Let's see how long the house of cards lasts.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nation ... 7272.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... 0263.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These have nothing to do with the WMD argument. Nothing.

Oh, you didn't say this?

You would have us believe Obama, the military, CIA and everyone else involved are betting their jobs, reputations, and a huge jail sentence, if not death for high treason, on something which any one of them could initiate a trial over tomorrow. If, that is, anyone suspects any wrongdoing. Of course they are not claiming to have video evidence unless they have it. NASA didn't claim to put mirrors on the moon, if they had not actually done so, either...

Funny, I must have hallucinated it.

I look forward to the showcasing of the video evidence,

As do I.

I am sure you will then show up here and tell us how those Republicans were lifelong plants and doubleagents working for Obama since before his birth.

Starting to abandon civility here....

Kojiro wrote:

PS: I am not asking you to prove a negative.

Really? Because that's what it looks like.

It fucking well isn't! And if you have read the next sentence after that quote there, you would have seen:

"I am asking you to prove your positive statement "Osama was dead already"."

I have told you this again and again, and you keep retreating from doing it by pushing the burden of proof around. Or randomly bringing up WMDs. Or misinterpreting what was written.

Where is your proof that Osama was dead already? I cannot say it any clearer, Kojiro. You claim he was dead, you prove that. When you have utterly failed to do so, everything falls neatly into place.

I've given it to you over and over now. If you don't want to swallow it, fine, but you're still wrong nevertheless.

Kojiro wrote:

PPS: That guy on the ground, with the squirt gun. Where did you get that picture?

That was one of the Reuters photos. Allegedly he was a terrorist guarding bin Laden. Yeah, that water pistol looks very dangerous indeed. The SEALs must have been recruited from the NYPD.

Then why did you make comments that he did not look like Bin Laden?

It was sarcasm. Strange concept, I know.

Also, do you think that you and your conspiracy buddies were the first one to notice the squirt gun? Do you think that you have uncovered some new piece of evidence? Because it sounds like it...
I have no clue where this picture is from, nor do I care. I, or Obama, do not need it, nor have we made it part of any reasoning. But lets assume Reuters have good reason to bring it. There were children in the house. Children. They may, and this is a huge leap of faith here, have had toys. The squirt gun is no damning evidence that you have found, exposing a conspiracy. It is just something lying on the flor where the guy fell. It does not prove anything re. who he is, unless a squirt gun would be absolutely out of place in the location the picture is claimed to be taken.

And where's his real gun if he was really a bin Laden guard? Allegedly there was a "firefight." None of the dead men in those pictures appear to have been armed.

Kojiro wrote:

Serkanner wrote:Al-Queda just confirmed that OBL has been kiled by the American raid last Sunday ... Must be a conspiracy too I guess.

I never put much stock into those alleged audio tapes of bin Laden. They all come out of SITE and never anywhere else.

So the Al-Queda tapes are doctored by the conspiracy too? How about me and Serkanner, are we on the payroll for the New World Order too?

SITE is not reputable or trustworthy. At least one of the tapes was exposed as a fraud, and if I remember correctly, it was the one mentioned in that article. Furthermore, they are the only group churning out those stupid tapes. Plus the support from the notorious Blackwater, masters of torture, is a red flag. Excuse me if I don't believe them.

Also, Cindy Sheehan, the antiwar activist, says you're stupid.

Let me try to address this burden of proof issue.

Obama is making a simple claim - that a recent operation killed Osama Bin Laden. This claim is consistent with what the Obama and Bush administrations have been saying for years - that Bin Laden was in hiding, there's been an ongoing intelligence effort to find him, that information about his whereabouts or his physical condition has been scarce and/or ambiguous. Obama's claim seems sudden, and there are enough odd details being revealed that one might, if so inclined, prefer to withhold acceptance of the claim until some concrete evidence is presented.

I don't think anyone is arguing with that.

What you're saying, however, is not that we should "withhold acceptance until some concrete evidence is presented". You're claiming that we should conclude *now* that Obama is lying. You're claiming that he's lying for a specific reason - to gain popularity. You're claiming that the reason we should believe this is that Bin Laden has been dead since 2002, and that this has been kept secret for nine years, by thousands of people in both the Obama and Bush administrations, and that everything they've been telling us about Bin Laden during that time has been a lie.

You are, then, making very specific and bold claims - ones much larger and more far-reaching than the one the President is making. And there's no reason to accept any of your claims just because the President has not proven *his* case. The president could still, possibly, be lying even if none of your claims is true.

However, you've used your far-reaching claims as the reason we should not believe the President statements now. So you have a significant burden of proof if you're to convince us that the president is lying by your reasoning. You have to prove that Bin Laden has been dead since 2002 and that a massive conspiracy in both administrations and the military has covered it up for nine years.

And you need to do this even if Obama says *not one word more* to prove his case.

HBJ

Kojiro wrote:Also, Cindy Sheehan, the antiwar activist, says you're stupid.

Also, everyone here, at the Dune site, says you're a useless twat.

Google it.

Hunchback Jack wrote:thousands of people

Number out of your ass?

Okay, say "dozens". It doesn't change the point of my post, which you seem to have ignored.

HBJ

Hunchback Jack wrote:... which you seem to have ignored.

A stunning development.

Hunchback Jack wrote:Okay, say "dozens". It doesn't change the point of my post, which you seem to have ignored.

HBJ

Well, thousands is grandiose. Dozens isn't. Hell, considering that Obama kept some of the Bush people makes it even less difficult.

I'm also counting the people in the intelligence agencies, in the military, and other branches of government, in and out of various positions over the nine years we're talking about, that would know of the deception and would need to keep it quiet.

The idea that Bin Laden has been dead since 2002 and only the President and small coterie would know it is absurd.

But it doesn't matter what the number is. Let's say "dozens".

HBJ

Can someone please make me a smiley reaching around its backside, grabbing some poo and throwing it onto the wall? I think we could use that around here.

Hunchback Jack wrote:I'm also counting the people in the intelligence agencies, in the military, and other branches of government, in and out of various positions over the nine years we're talking about, that would know of the deception and would need to keep it quiet.

The idea that Bin Laden has been dead since 2002 and only the President and small coterie would know it is absurd.

But it doesn't matter what the number is. Let's say "dozens".

HBJ

A simple order to the military personnel keeps them quiet. Marvel at how long the Blackbird and stealth aircraft remained hush hush, so they don't particularly count, unless they want to be court martialed. The intelligence community was already on my list of "he's already dead" links, so that's already partially accounted for and they have similar clearance levels to the military with similar penalties. And other branches of the government? The legislative and judicial? Why would they need to know this?