Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

The most important part of the Golden Path is the destination, continued Human survival.

As i see it the GP is the continual human survival:

It recipe is:

-Scattering via Ixian navigational machines
-Siona Gene

SandChigger wrote:but I do think you're overthinking the meaning of the Golden Path

Overthinking the GP -- is that even possible?

SandChigger wrote:Leto sensitizes Siona to the necessity of his GP by showing her a possible future in which it does not apply. And yes, it is a human-created extinction. But NO, it is not a "derailing" of the GP. Because once established, the GP can never fail.

I would agree if you said that "fail" was not the precise word, or something, but... well, Leto was always probing to see if the path was still there, so... In some measure, whatever it is, shit could happen.

SandChigger wrote:Is that what you think the Scattering was? Touristy wanderlust?

Desire to travel and to see new things can be much more than "touristy wanderlust". In astrology, "travel" and "higher philosophy" are represented by the same "house". Travel and see new things is another way to open yourself to the infinity, to what you could not imagine...

SandChigger wrote:And just how do you think they would have managed that without the INM? Kidnap a few Navigators and hijack some Heighliners?

Except if Arrakis was actually "Old Terra" forgotten (a possibility i considered more than one time, but which i think just does not work) than humankind must have travelled to other planets without spice in order to have found spice.

So, yes, pretty much they could do without spice. I guess it is said in the Appendixes...

SandChigger wrote:But neither survival nor evolution would be possible without the factor of physical dispersion (Scattering) and initial invisibility to prescience (Siona Gene, no-tech).

I think prescience is just a metaphor for the locking of the mind you have when you dogmatically believe something or follow a leader blindly. It is a metaphor for Paul's hubris. Invisibility to prescience is a metaphor also.

SandChigger wrote:I guess I just don't get this desire to limit or rank this or that as THE most important part of the Golden Path.

Nevertheless, you do rank "Invisibility" and "Dispersion" as the choking-points of the whole path, the sine qua non factors, the things the GP could not do without. So, in my book, you are ranking them as THE whatever. You are putting the tension there. Which i also did once, mind you, and just recently switched opinions...

Ghost wrote:As i see it the GP is the continual human survival:

It recipe is:

-Scattering via Ixian navigational machines
-Siona Gene

When mentioning the Siona Gene I would enclude no-field technology, which I consider a mechanical means of producing the same effect.

Without the INM sure, they could have gone back to the "hodgepode of methods" used before the Guild but that would have been much slower and prescience wouldn't even be needed to catch them.

Without the Siona Gene or No-tech, as least you would have a chance to outrun any potential threat, and once The Scattering achieved a particular size, even a prescient wouldn't be able to find them all strictly due to the logistics.

Also i think that ''Dune History'' or the Golden Path is abouth bringing down monopolies.

In Dune the Guild is the only one who provides space travel, Arrakis is the only source of Melange, the Emperor is the centralized government (yeah, i know there is the landraad).

In ChoD all is changed, in less words, diversification.

Ghost wrote:Also i think that ''Dune History'' or the Golden Path is abouth bringing down monopolies.

In Dune the Guild is the only one who provides space travel, Arrakis is the only source of Melange, the Emperor is the centralized government (yeah, i know there is the landraad).

In ChoD all is changed, in less words, diversification.

Yes, that's part of it. The Guild Monopoly severly limited man's ability to travel at will.

I sometimes wonder why Leto didn't totally destroy the spice.

mrpsbrk wrote:Overthinking the GP -- is that even possible?

Yes, quite.

I would agree if you said that "fail" was not the precise word, or something, but... well, Leto was always probing to see if the path was still there, so... In some measure, whatever it is, shit could happen.

That's because he was still alive and the GP not yet fully established.

Desire to travel and to see new things can be much more than "touristy wanderlust". In astrology, "travel" and "higher philosophy" are represented by the same "house". Travel and see new things is another way to open yourself to the infinity, to what you could not imagine...

Oh mumbo-jumbo. I think he instilled in people an overwhelming instinctive aversion to being controlled and limited, as he had done to the race for 3,500 years. A need to vote with their feet, in other words. All that la-la-la higher stuff they could pick up and think about while their feet were moving.

Except if Arrakis was actually "Old Terra" forgotten (a possibility i considered more than one time, but which i think just does not work)

I'm glad you reached that conclusion, because that's the level of "thinking" I would expect of that "The moon is an island!" Bel Moulay clown over on the Dune Novels BBS.

humankind must have travelled to other planets without spice in order to have found spice.

So, yes, pretty much they could do without spice. I guess it is said in the Appendixes...

The past is irrelevant. Yes, humankind first travelled without spice. Yes, (I believe) humankind travelled by foldspace without spice because they had computers and AI to navigate. Freak has already answered this.

Spice is only necessary as a cheat to ensure that you arrive safely. But it's not essential to the travel itself. There is nothing mystical about folding space. (And there are ways around the problem.)

I think prescience is just a metaphor for the locking of the mind you have when you dogmatically believe something or follow a leader blindly. It is a metaphor for Paul's hubris. Invisibility to prescience is a metaphor also.

You're switching levels and now in the meta-verse of the Duniverse, discussing the meaning of story elements in our universe.

Nevertheless, you do rank "Invisibility" and "Dispersion" as the choking-points of the whole path, the sine qua non factors, the things the GP could not do without.

Only until it is established. Once the GP is established, the GP is irrelevant and not worth worrying about.

Any character that wonders whether the GP has failed or whether humanity has "wandered from the path" simply doesn't understand it. If there are people alive anywhere in the Duniverse, the Golden Path continues. It can't fail until the species has evolved or died out.

SandChigger wrote:Any character that wonders whether the GP has failed or whether humanity has "wandered from the path" simply doesn't understand it. If there are people alive anywhere in the Duniverse, the Golden Path continues. It can't fail until the species has evolved or died out.

...or author...

Can't get one past you, can I?

oooo, I think I just heard the title of the OH book :

The End of the Golden Path

How about:

Off the Golden Path

or

Follow the Golden Brick Path

Note to self: going off and starting a new thread is always one way of (not) dealing with counter points.

SandChigger wrote:Note to self: going off and starting a new thread is always one way of (not) dealing with counter points. ;)

If you want, i can publicly announce my defeat against your flawless argumentation. As it stands, i simply lost any interest i had on discussing the GP in what i termed "strategical" terms. Sincerely, i do not think you are interested in my point of view, and i also do not think you should.

So, another thread seemed to serve everyone's best interests.

mrpsbrk wrote:Sincerely, i do not think you are interested in my point of view, and i also do not think you should.

Aren't you the astute one. But, you do not think I should what?


(As for your PM, I prefer to keep my nasty public; that way no one can ever claim something was said which wasn't. You want to call me "shallow" in public? Hey, knock yourself out. I'm sure your "deep" philosophical musings will prove most enlightening.)

Sorry I'm kinda coming in on the tail end of this part of the discussion, but...

SandChigger wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:
Nevertheless, you do rank "Invisibility" and "Dispersion" as the choking-points of the whole path, the sine qua non factors, the things the GP could not do without.

Only until it is established. Once the GP is established, the GP is irrelevant and not worth worrying about.

While I do agree that the Siona gene and the Scattering are definitely the means that Leto used to actualize the GP, I'm not sure if those were the only possible means. The GP could've been established in other ways, IMO. In an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities and all that jazz... Now if Siona had both managed to kill Leto and then died before having any children, the Siona gene component would've been lacking, but that's not to say that the Scattering wouldn't have managed on its own, just that it would've faced more obstacles. I think after so much of Leto's enforced tranquility, the Scattering was basically inevitable. I think that the Siona gene was to help ensure its success.

I'm aware that this is gonna seem kind of like a compromise stance, but I'm comfortable with that. In too many things I'm able to see both sides of a disagreement too well to reject either one completely, but now I'm venturing off topic...

Any character that wonders whether the GP has failed or whether humanity has "wandered from the path" simply doesn't understand it. If there are people alive anywhere in the Duniverse, the Golden Path continues. It can't fail until the species has evolved or died out.

I couldn't agree more.

dunepunk wrote:While I do agree that the Siona gene and the Scattering are definitely the means that Leto used to actualize the GP, I'm not sure if those were the only possible means.

I'm not aware that anyone has suggested they were. ???

Now if Siona had both managed to kill Leto and then died before having any children, the Siona gene component would've been lacking, but that's not to say that the Scattering wouldn't have managed on its own, just that it would've faced more obstacles. I think after so much of Leto's enforced tranquility, the Scattering was basically inevitable. I think that the Siona gene was to help ensure its success.

Since FH didn't tell us about every little thing Siona did during the time from Leto's death until her own, we can't know exactly how her presence and actions altered things, but I agree that the Scattering was inevitable, even without her.

And as I posted recently, I take it as a given that there were groups that went out into the Scattering without the Siona Gene, based on the simple physical impossibility of it having spread across human space in the time given.

As Freak has often pointed out, the appearance of Teg and his ability to see no-tech and "no-people" spells an end to the usefulness of Siona's gift. That leaves only physical dispersion, which is enough, by that point.

SandChigger wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:Overthinking the GP -- is that even possible?

Yes, quite.

I think prescience is just a metaphor for the locking of the mind you have when you dogmatically believe something or follow a leader blindly. It is a metaphor for Paul's hubris. Invisibility to prescience is a metaphor also.

You're switching levels and now in the meta-verse of the Duniverse, discussing the meaning of story elements in our universe.

Well, i think this view is simply shallow.

Also, to me is pretty obvious that FH was a damned preacher. He does not care to stop all action to deliver the reader a long lecture about the inherent violence of governments or the interweaving between ecology and war. Therefore, i do believe that taking anything at all that he writes as split from his own personal views is like missing a fat slice of the whole. Which means that i do believe that any discussion of Dune at all is pointless if it fails to acknowledge the multiple layers of meaning, from the plot to the preaching. And i further think this is almost spelled out in the very beginning of the first book, with the following words: wheels within wheels within wheels.

Therefore, i think your view of the GP is shallow. Which means that i am not terribly interested in it.

There. I called you shallow in public. Hope you are happy.

And about what i meant with "i don't think you should", i meant i do not think you have the obligation, the reason or any reasonable incentive to be interested in my "over-thought" take on the GP.

Ooh, the frisson of being called shallow in public by a deep thinker!

(Hey, 'Rider! Wanna compare boners? )



I really don't consider it my problem if you can't discuss the topic without mixing levels.

But please, do continue in your new thread. I simply love how you go on.

I do too, and I'm not being sarcastic.

You might be over-thinking, if that's possible in a DUNE discussion,
and some of your ideas are more pseudointellectual than substantive,
but I applaud the effort.

Half the time I can't follow what you're talking about, and that's
not a bad thing at all....

What I'd REALLY like to see you do is take this over to FED2K and
engage some of those long-winded smart-asses in the DUNIVERSE
forum - see if they can pull their heads out of their goddamn video
game and juvenile political mind-farting and actually discuss some
Frank.....

SandChigger wrote:

dunepunk wrote:While I do agree that the Siona gene and the Scattering are definitely the means that Leto used to actualize the GP, I'm not sure if those were the only possible means.

I'm not aware that anyone has suggested they were. ???

Now if Siona had both managed to kill Leto and then died before having any children, the Siona gene component would've been lacking, but that's not to say that the Scattering wouldn't have managed on its own, just that it would've faced more obstacles. I think after so much of Leto's enforced tranquility, the Scattering was basically inevitable. I think that the Siona gene was to help ensure its success.

Since FH didn't tell us about every little thing Siona did during the time from Leto's death until her own, we can't know exactly how her presence and actions altered things, but I agree that the Scattering was inevitable, even without her.

And as I posted recently, I take it as a given that there were groups that went out into the Scattering without the Siona Gene, based on the simple physical impossibility of it having spread across human space in the time given.

As Freak has often pointed out, the appearance of Teg and his ability to see no-tech and "no-people" spells an end to the usefulness of Siona's gift. That leaves only physical dispersion, which is enough, by that point.

Fair enough. This is basically my stance on it. I was just kind of re-phrasing some of the discussion to point out where I thought some of the important points were.

SandRider wrote:and some of your ideas are more pseudointellectual than substantive,

I plead guilty ;-)

SandRider wrote:Half the time I can't follow what you're talking about, and that's
not a bad thing at all....

But dammit, man, i will also plead guilty of having communication problems, so probably it would help me if you could be so kind as to tell me when you do not follow me...

SandRider wrote:What I'd REALLY like to see you do is take this over to FED2K and

Do not know what is FED2k -- if it is a game thing i am too much a lamer at games to engage in any discussion at all -- though i do love to use RTS situations as examples to pseudo-intellectual arguments ;-)

SandChigger wrote:Ooh, the frisson of being called shallow in public by a deep thinker!

You called me that. Sarcasm or no sarcasm, you are giving me more credit than i asked for.

I do not actually have lots of answers, i just try to focus on what i consider good questions. If you have good answers, i am OK with it, but i reserve the right to not care for the ones i think are besides the heart of the matter.

As, for example, i do not think technology can be taken as the goal of the GP, as Omphalos did on his original post... For example, FH sez Ix is a number that the planetarians forgot what meant and took for a name -- i take that as a (very direct, if you pause to think about FH's attitude towards technology) way of saying that mathematics is cool but it's foolish to give it more credit than it's due...

And, PS.: with the discussion i started at the "suggestions" forum, i figured it couldn't hurt to give my beloved "GP Forum" one more thread to avoid it being joined with another... hahahahahhahahahahah

Ghost wrote:Also i think that ''Dune History'' or the Golden Path is abouth bringing down monopolies.

IF that was so, Leto could swap 3.5 thousand years of boredom for a trip in a heighliner with a sandworm... Cheaper, cleaner, easier. No monopoly after that, either...

There is got to be something else there.

[edit:removed you all -- but no problem, it is preserved into Freak's quotes if you need accusing examples]