Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

you make bunny eye-roll ...

The only KJA books I have read are the ones he wrote with Brian -- if Brian even wrote them? So outside of Dune, I am not really aquainted with KJA. I am a KJASF member because he invited me. I am a wannabe Author, and have been since way before I knew KJA. I don't want to write a book to be a best-selling author; That little factoid is not what I want to write for. I want to write a book to know that I can write a book, and know that I myself enjoyed it. I have several ideas, and some days I like to write them out. I am always working on some idea, somewhere. I was invited to the KJASF by Mr. Anderson through facebook, and before that I had never talked to him. He has advice -- and I take it as is. I realize a lot more about KJA than it may seem.

Trust me, when it comes to being apart of KJA's fandom, the KJASF forum and facebook are as about as far as I really ever need to get to understand KJA and how he writes.

He is not quality, he is quantity. That is what he does.
I don't think that's the way to write a book. He does, and I don't agree with the method.

E. LeGuille wrote:The only KJA books I have read are the ones he wrote with Brian -- if Brian even wrote them? So outside of Dune, I am not really aquainted with KJA. I am a KJASF member because he invited me. I am a wannabe Author, and have been since way before I knew KJA. I don't want to write a book to be a best-selling author; That little factoid is not what I want to write for. I want to write a book to know that I can write a book, and know that I myself enjoyed it. I have several ideas, and some days I like to write them out. I am always working on some idea, somewhere. I was invited to the KJASF by Mr. Anderson through facebook, and before that I had never talked to him. He has advice -- and I take it as is. I realize a lot more about KJA than it may seem.

Trust me, when it comes to being apart of KJA's fandom, the KJASF forum and facebook are as about as far as I really ever need to get to understand KJA and how he writes.

He is not quality, he is quantity. That is what he does.
I don't think that's the way to write a book. He does, and I don't agree with the method.

I think all of us learned that TheKJA writes for quantity when in nearly every interview he gives he talks about how many books he has written and how he and That Other Guy have written more Dune books than Frank Herbert.

So, LeGuille, what's going on back on the ranch, eh??

PM me. I wanna know how bad RedBug, TAZ, Prester Dilly, and Xianghua's ass-sniffing-ish (it's a fucking word. It is.)tripe is over there, having seen the atrocities at DN. Also, if any of them have gotten the 50 KJA points or whatever it takes to be incorporated into his next book.

Sandwurm88 wrote:So, LeGuille, what's going on back on the ranch, eh??

PM me. I wanna know how bad RedBug, TAZ, Prester Dilly, and Xianghua's ass-sniffing-ish (it's a fucking word. It is.)tripe is over there, having seen the atrocities at DN. Also, if any of them have gotten the 50 KJA points or whatever it takes to be incorporated into his next book.

If you get 51 points you get a titwank from Combover and his manboobs.

Ooh, now doesn't THAT sound like fun!



But remember, those points are CUMulative, so even after you've turned your 50 in for your name in a book, you still only need one more for the sag pull!

Sandwurm88 wrote:So, LeGuille, what's going on back on the ranch, eh??

PM me. I wanna know how bad RedBug, TAZ, Prester Dilly, and Xianghua's ass-sniffing-ish (it's a fucking word. It is.)tripe is over there, having seen the atrocities at DN. Also, if any of them have gotten the 50 KJA points or whatever it takes to be incorporated into his next book.

I don't think anyone is tracking points anymore.

And the reason I can't PM you is because, ever since that first week at Amazon... no one's been around... it's dead.

There are few questions up, but that's about it. I posted about the Kindle, got a response the next week. That sort of thing.

Hmmm.

Let's see, who abandons a sinking ship first?

I made this, just for you, SandChigger.



And so you know, that secret place: it's already underwater.

Hmm ... you seem to have confused me with SandRider.

:edit: woah, totally thought I was posting somewhere else?

SandChigger wrote:Hmm ... you seem to have confused me with SandRider.

Woah, too little time spent here, you are right.

I reiterate, then.

SandRider, I made this for you.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Onwards, to some of the things that popped into my head as EXPLICIT examples of poor writing when I read Sandworms. I will add contemporary comments in red

Now we must use those techniques not just for our own protection, but as a functional weapon, a means of influencing armies. No longer passive and protective, but an active force. A Missionaria Aggressiva.”

Waff had a much more immediate solution. If he could develop a breed of sandworm that
tolerated water, even thrived around it, the creatures could be transplanted onto innumerable
worlds where they could grow swiftly and multiply! The worms would not need to reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange. That alone would save
decades that Waff simply did not have. His modified worms would provide all the spice the Guild
Navigators could ever desire - and serve Waff's purposes as well.

Problem: the worms don’t create the spice. It is formed when a cluster of sandtrout has reached a critical point, fermented if you will, creating the pre-spice mass; which then produces vast quantities of carbon dioxide; pressure builds up and creates an explosion known as a spice blow. When the remains of the pre-spice mass have dried out this is what is known as the spice mélange. No worms necessary, the only purpose of the worm vector appears to be to protect the territory (from what who knows?) and eventually die producing more sandtrout. This demonstrates poor Dune knowledge in general.

The worms make the trout, which, in turn make the spice. You need the worm to get the trout, which grow into new worms.
Genetically modifying the worms to be able to live in water is to change the cycle.
I think that this may possibly be have been interpreted from Frank's notes. The underlying reason to do this would be to exploit the symbolism of water as the promise of renewal.

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Onwards, to some of the things that popped into my head as EXPLICIT examples of poor writing when I read Sandworms. I will add contemporary comments in red

Now we must use those techniques not just for our own protection, but as a functional weapon, a means of influencing armies. No longer passive and protective, but an active force. A Missionaria Aggressiva.”

Waff had a much more immediate solution. If he could develop a breed of sandworm that
tolerated water, even thrived around it, the creatures could be transplanted onto innumerable
worlds where they could grow swiftly and multiply! The worms would not need to reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange. That alone would save
decades that Waff simply did not have. His modified worms would provide all the spice the Guild
Navigators could ever desire - and serve Waff's purposes as well.

Problem: the worms don’t create the spice. It is formed when a cluster of sandtrout has reached a critical point, fermented if you will, creating the pre-spice mass; which then produces vast quantities of carbon dioxide; pressure builds up and creates an explosion known as a spice blow. When the remains of the pre-spice mass have dried out this is what is known as the spice mélange. No worms necessary, the only purpose of the worm vector appears to be to protect the territory (from what who knows?) and eventually die producing more sandtrout. This demonstrates poor Dune knowledge in general.

The worms make the trout, which, in turn make the spice. You need the worm to get the trout, which grow into new worms.
Genetically modifying the worms to be able to live in water is to change the cycle.
I think that this may possibly be have been interpreted from Frank's notes. The underlying reason to do this would be to exploit the symbolism of water as the promise of renewal.

I don't see how what you just said changes the fact that this looks like KJA missunderstanding the spice cycle.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Onwards, to some of the things that popped into my head as EXPLICIT examples of poor writing when I read Sandworms. I will add contemporary comments in red

Now we must use those techniques not just for our own protection, but as a functional weapon, a means of influencing armies. No longer passive and protective, but an active force. A Missionaria Aggressiva.”

Waff had a much more immediate solution. If he could develop a breed of sandworm that
tolerated water, even thrived around it, the creatures could be transplanted onto innumerable
worlds where they could grow swiftly and multiply! The worms would not need to reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange. That alone would save
decades that Waff simply did not have. His modified worms would provide all the spice the Guild
Navigators could ever desire - and serve Waff's purposes as well.

Problem: the worms don’t create the spice. It is formed when a cluster of sandtrout has reached a critical point, fermented if you will, creating the pre-spice mass; which then produces vast quantities of carbon dioxide; pressure builds up and creates an explosion known as a spice blow. When the remains of the pre-spice mass have dried out this is what is known as the spice mélange. No worms necessary, the only purpose of the worm vector appears to be to protect the territory (from what who knows?) and eventually die producing more sandtrout. This demonstrates poor Dune knowledge in general.

The worms make the trout, which, in turn make the spice. You need the worm to get the trout, which grow into new worms.
Genetically modifying the worms to be able to live in water is to change the cycle.
I think that this may possibly be have been interpreted from Frank's notes. The underlying reason to do this would be to exploit the symbolism of water as the promise of renewal.

I don't see how what you just said changes the fact that this looks like KJA missunderstanding the spice cycle.

He states it for the assumed knowledge that the worms, through their sand trout phase, anr part of the spice cycle. Kill the trout, no worms. No worms, no trout. No spice.

“Paul took a deep breath, said: "Mother, you must change a quantity of the
Water for us. We need the catalyst. Chani, have a scout force sent out . . . to
find a pre-spice mass. If we plant a quantity of the Water of Life above a prespice
mass, do you know what will happen?"
Jessica weighed his words, suddenly saw through to his meaning. "Paul!" she
gasped.
"The Water of Death," he said. "It'd be a chain reaction." He pointed to the
floor. "Spreading death among the little makers, killing a vector of the life
cycle that includes the spice and the makers. Arrakis will become a true
desolation -- without spice or maker."”

Changing the genetics of the worm changes the whole life cycle because they are just a different phase of the same life form, much like changing the genetics of a butterfly would change the genetics of its offspring in all stages.

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Onwards, to some of the things that popped into my head as EXPLICIT examples of poor writing when I read Sandworms. I will add contemporary comments in red

Now we must use those techniques not just for our own protection, but as a functional weapon, a means of influencing armies. No longer passive and protective, but an active force. A Missionaria Aggressiva.”

Waff had a much more immediate solution. If he could develop a breed of sandworm that
tolerated water, even thrived around it, the creatures could be transplanted onto innumerable
worlds where they could grow swiftly and multiply! The worms would not need to reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange. That alone would save
decades that Waff simply did not have. His modified worms would provide all the spice the Guild
Navigators could ever desire - and serve Waff's purposes as well.

Problem: the worms don’t create the spice. It is formed when a cluster of sandtrout has reached a critical point, fermented if you will, creating the pre-spice mass; which then produces vast quantities of carbon dioxide; pressure builds up and creates an explosion known as a spice blow. When the remains of the pre-spice mass have dried out this is what is known as the spice mélange. No worms necessary, the only purpose of the worm vector appears to be to protect the territory (from what who knows?) and eventually die producing more sandtrout. This demonstrates poor Dune knowledge in general.

The worms make the trout, which, in turn make the spice. You need the worm to get the trout, which grow into new worms.
Genetically modifying the worms to be able to live in water is to change the cycle.
I think that this may possibly be have been interpreted from Frank's notes. The underlying reason to do this would be to exploit the symbolism of water as the promise of renewal.

I don't see how what you just said changes the fact that this looks like KJA missunderstanding the spice cycle.

He states it for the assumed knowledge that the worms, through their sand trout phase, anr part of the spice cycle. Kill the trout, no worms. No worms, no trout. No spice.

“Paul took a deep breath, said: "Mother, you must change a quantity of the
Water for us. We need the catalyst. Chani, have a scout force sent out . . . to
find a pre-spice mass. If we plant a quantity of the Water of Life above a prespice
mass, do you know what will happen?"
Jessica weighed his words, suddenly saw through to his meaning. "Paul!" she
gasped.
"The Water of Death," he said. "It'd be a chain reaction." He pointed to the
floor. "Spreading death among the little makers, killing a vector of the life
cycle that includes the spice and the makers. Arrakis will become a true
desolation -- without spice or maker."”

Changing the genetics of the worm changes the whole life cycle because they are just a different phase of the same life form, much like changing the genetics of a butterfly would change the genetics of its offspring in all stages.

Ok, so you're saying that when Waff says that the worms have to "reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange", this was just unclear wording, and he actually did mean that the trout do it, not the worms? Am I getting you now?

Because it looks like Waff thinks that the worms are the spice producing vector.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Onwards, to some of the things that popped into my head as EXPLICIT examples of poor writing when I read Sandworms. I will add contemporary comments in red

Now we must use those techniques not just for our own protection, but as a functional weapon, a means of influencing armies. No longer passive and protective, but an active force. A Missionaria Aggressiva.”

Waff had a much more immediate solution. If he could develop a breed of sandworm that
tolerated water, even thrived around it, the creatures could be transplanted onto innumerable
worlds where they could grow swiftly and multiply! The worms would not need to reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange. That alone would save
decades that Waff simply did not have. His modified worms would provide all the spice the Guild
Navigators could ever desire - and serve Waff's purposes as well.

Problem: the worms don’t create the spice. It is formed when a cluster of sandtrout has reached a critical point, fermented if you will, creating the pre-spice mass; which then produces vast quantities of carbon dioxide; pressure builds up and creates an explosion known as a spice blow. When the remains of the pre-spice mass have dried out this is what is known as the spice mélange. No worms necessary, the only purpose of the worm vector appears to be to protect the territory (from what who knows?) and eventually die producing more sandtrout. This demonstrates poor Dune knowledge in general.

The worms make the trout, which, in turn make the spice. You need the worm to get the trout, which grow into new worms.
Genetically modifying the worms to be able to live in water is to change the cycle.
I think that this may possibly be have been interpreted from Frank's notes. The underlying reason to do this would be to exploit the symbolism of water as the promise of renewal.

I don't see how what you just said changes the fact that this looks like KJA missunderstanding the spice cycle.

He states it for the assumed knowledge that the worms, through their sand trout phase, anr part of the spice cycle. Kill the trout, no worms. No worms, no trout. No spice.

“Paul took a deep breath, said: "Mother, you must change a quantity of the
Water for us. We need the catalyst. Chani, have a scout force sent out . . . to
find a pre-spice mass. If we plant a quantity of the Water of Life above a prespice
mass, do you know what will happen?"
Jessica weighed his words, suddenly saw through to his meaning. "Paul!" she
gasped.
"The Water of Death," he said. "It'd be a chain reaction." He pointed to the
floor. "Spreading death among the little makers, killing a vector of the life
cycle that includes the spice and the makers. Arrakis will become a true
desolation -- without spice or maker."”

Changing the genetics of the worm changes the whole life cycle because they are just a different phase of the same life form, much like changing the genetics of a butterfly would change the genetics of its offspring in all stages.

Ok, so you're saying that when Waff says that the worms have to "reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange", this was just unclear wording, and he actually did mean that the trout do it, not the worms? Am I getting you now?

Because it looks like Waff thinks that the worms are the spice producing vector.

Yes, I think he is referring to how the worms as a full lifecycle will not have to remove the water from a planet to be able to thrive and produce spice.
No, he really doesn’t go into detail about what he is changing that makes the new genetically modifies species able to be in water at all stages, but the advantage is clear.

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Onwards, to some of the things that popped into my head as EXPLICIT examples of poor writing when I read Sandworms. I will add contemporary comments in red

Now we must use those techniques not just for our own protection, but as a functional weapon, a means of influencing armies. No longer passive and protective, but an active force. A Missionaria Aggressiva.”

Waff had a much more immediate solution. If he could develop a breed of sandworm that
tolerated water, even thrived around it, the creatures could be transplanted onto innumerable
worlds where they could grow swiftly and multiply! The worms would not need to reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange. That alone would save
decades that Waff simply did not have. His modified worms would provide all the spice the Guild
Navigators could ever desire - and serve Waff's purposes as well.

Problem: the worms don’t create the spice. It is formed when a cluster of sandtrout has reached a critical point, fermented if you will, creating the pre-spice mass; which then produces vast quantities of carbon dioxide; pressure builds up and creates an explosion known as a spice blow. When the remains of the pre-spice mass have dried out this is what is known as the spice mélange. No worms necessary, the only purpose of the worm vector appears to be to protect the territory (from what who knows?) and eventually die producing more sandtrout. This demonstrates poor Dune knowledge in general.

The worms make the trout, which, in turn make the spice. You need the worm to get the trout, which grow into new worms.
Genetically modifying the worms to be able to live in water is to change the cycle.
I think that this may possibly be have been interpreted from Frank's notes. The underlying reason to do this would be to exploit the symbolism of water as the promise of renewal.

I don't see how what you just said changes the fact that this looks like KJA missunderstanding the spice cycle.

He states it for the assumed knowledge that the worms, through their sand trout phase, anr part of the spice cycle. Kill the trout, no worms. No worms, no trout. No spice.

“Paul took a deep breath, said: "Mother, you must change a quantity of the
Water for us. We need the catalyst. Chani, have a scout force sent out . . . to
find a pre-spice mass. If we plant a quantity of the Water of Life above a prespice
mass, do you know what will happen?"
Jessica weighed his words, suddenly saw through to his meaning. "Paul!" she
gasped.
"The Water of Death," he said. "It'd be a chain reaction." He pointed to the
floor. "Spreading death among the little makers, killing a vector of the life
cycle that includes the spice and the makers. Arrakis will become a true
desolation -- without spice or maker."”

Changing the genetics of the worm changes the whole life cycle because they are just a different phase of the same life form, much like changing the genetics of a butterfly would change the genetics of its offspring in all stages.

Ok, so you're saying that when Waff says that the worms have to "reconstruct a
whole planetary environment before they began to produce mélange", this was just unclear wording, and he actually did mean that the trout do it, not the worms? Am I getting you now?

Because it looks like Waff thinks that the worms are the spice producing vector.

Yes, I think he is referring to how the worms as a full lifecycle will not have to remove the water from a planet to be able to thrive and produce spice.
No, he really doesn’t go into detail about what he is changing that makes the new genetically modifies species able to be in water at all stages, but the advantage is clear.

I think we'll have to agree to dissagree on this one then, since your explanation requires a lot of assumptions that aren't really supported by the text, and this is only one of many times that KJA seems to indicate in the writing that he thinks the worms themselves produce the spice.

Anyways, one thing I didn't mention about this part of the book is that it didn't have any effect on the outcome of the novel. None. No plotline from either book had anything to do with humanity triumphing over the machines. Dune 7 was just an endless parade of scifiporn like "super armoured worms" and "worms combining together for no reason at all and with no explanation of how", and then a big Dues Ex Machina ending that showed how humanity needs a saviour.

Could there have been a more pathetic end to one of the most important series of SF history?

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Could there have been a more pathetic end to one of the most important series of SF history?

Give it some time and I think there's a good chance that Sandworms specifically will go down in history as not just one of the worst SF books of all time, but one of the worst books, period.

All of their Dune books are shit, of course. But Sandworms, in particular, is just bad on new and unknown levels of bad. That sort of epic level of awfulness needs time to gestate before it can be truly appreciated. History will not be kind to that book.

A sandworm can be induced to disassociate into sandtrout under the proper conditions, but there's nothing to indicate that they go around producing them as a normal physiological function. (Sandtrout aren't "baby sandworms", in other words.)

The sandtrout also propagate on their own, producing other sandtrout.

That is canon. If there is extra information in the Notes, let them quote it verbatim. I prefer my FH undiluted through the filters of a fuzzyheaded (in multiple senses) offspring and talent-free hack.

SandChigger wrote:A sandworm can be induced to disassociate into sandtrout under the proper conditions, but there's nothing to indicate that they go around producing them as a normal physiological function. (Sandtrout aren't "baby sandworms", in other words.)

The sandtrout also propagate on their own, producing other sandtrout.

That is canon. If there is extra information in the Notes, let them quote it verbatim. I prefer my FH undiluted through the filters of a fuzzyheaded (in multiple senses) offspring and talent-free hack.

LITTLE MAKER: the half-plant-half-animal deep-sand vector of the Arrakis sandworm. The Little Maker's excretions form the pre-spice mass.

Kynes set his newly trained Fremen limnologists to work: their chief clue, leathery scraps of matter sometimes found with the spice-mass after a blow. This had been ascribed to a fictional "sandtrout" in Fremen folk stories. As facts grew into evidence, a creature emerged to explain these leathery scraps -- a sandswimmer that blocked off water into fertile pockets within the porous lower strata below the 280° (absolute) line. This "water-stealer" died by the millions in each spice-blow. A five-degree change in temperature could kill it. The few survivors entered a semidormant cyst-hibernation to emerge in six years as small (about three meters long) sandworms. Of these, only a few avoided their larger brothers and pre-spice water pockets to emerge into maturity as the giant shai-hulud. (Water is poisonous to shai-hulud as the Fremen had long known from drowning the rare
"stunted worm" of the Minor Erg to produce the awareness-spectrum narcotic they call Water of Life. The "stunted worm" is a primitive form of shai-hulud that
reaches a length of only about nine meters.) Now they had the circular relationship: little maker to pre-spice mass; little maker to shai-hulud; shai-hulud to scatter the spice upon which fed microscopic creatures called sand plankton; the sand plankton, food for shaihulud, growing, burrowing, becoming little makers.


My argument is valid. If you have access to the genetics, you can change any or all of the vectors, provided you understand the genetic sequencing sufficiently...It is being done now, in the real world.

I couldn't find the reference to trout making trout, but it it clear that this is a closed circle that needs all of the vectors to thrive and continue the spice cycle.

If you bother yourself for a few moments to search the first dune novels, you'll find a very detailed description of how the worm and the spice cycle work, rather than searching an article in the DE (if i'm not mistaken) wich happens to have some author admited inconsistencies. Please find a quote from the novels instead.

Don't quote the Terminology and "Ecology Appendix" of Dune at me, you prequelite hacksucker. Your "argument" is shit and you know it.

"Ooh, Lord Kevin, tell me EVERYTHING about YOUR 'waterworm'!" Mmm...mmm...mmm!

redbugpest wrote:I couldn't find the reference to trout making trout...

Odd, since it's not in that book (or two or three?) you claim you've loaned out. (Or did you finally get it back? Not that it's relevant.)

FAIL.

SandChigger wrote:Don't quote the Terminology and "Ecology Appendix" of Dune at me, you prequelite hacksucker. Your "argument" is shit and you know it.

"Ooh, Lord Kevin, tell me EVERYTHING about YOUR 'waterworm'!" Mmm...mmm...mmm!

redbugpest wrote:I couldn't find the reference to trout making trout...

Odd, since it's not in that book (or two or three?) you claim you've loaned out. (Or did you finally get it back? Not that it's relevant.)

FAIL.

It's from the Dune appendix?! I dont remeber that bit he quoted, but then again it's been sometime since i re-read the first one. But i'm pretty sure the appendix has more detailed bits, along with the chapter where Liet dies in the desert.