posts that I think should be deleted at DN

[Tleszer]

We should gather up all the interviews with Frank in one place, anyway.

SandRider gathered up interviews at his Dune Archive. SandRider had an email interview with Norman Spinrad who said that FH did the later novels for money.

SR: You've written that DUNE has become "the template for a generation and more of imitative works, including all too many sequels by Herbert himself. " Where do you think Frank should have ended the DUNE storyline ? Or, what seemed to you to be the natural ending point that he exceeded ?

NS: The third DUNE novel should have been the last one. Frank told me that when he started, he actually wanted to write one huge novel, and thought it out that way. Publishing reality mandated it be published in thirds. After than, it was mostly about money, offers he couldn't refuse

The interview can be found here or here. I know that there isn't mention of Duncan, but is this what you were looking for regarding writing the later novels for money?

[chanilover]

I havn't read that before. The fact he wrote the last books for money does show, they're just not in the same league as the books up to GEoD.

[A Thing of Eternity]

According to that though he wrote GEoD for the money too.

[Freakzilla]

All books are written for money, to some extent.

What I'm describing is the slow realization of success. By the time the first
three Dune books were completed, there was little doubt that this was a popular
work -- one of the most popular in history, I am told, with some ten million
copies sold worldwide. Now the most common question people ask is: "What does
this success mean to you?"
It surprises me. I didn't expect failure either. It was a work and I did it.
Parts of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were written before Dune was
completed. They fleshed out more in the writing, but the essential story
remained intact. I was a writer and I was writing. The success meant I could
spend more time writing.
~FH, Intro to HoD

I was really looking for a quote about Duncan though.

[Serkanner]

I swear I read a FH interview or something where he said he kept bringing Duncan back because he was a fan favorite and he was continually pressured into writing more Dune books...

I am positive I read somewhere in an interview that Frank indeed returned Duncan at the request of the many fans who disliked him being killed in Dune.

[Freakzilla]

I swear I read a FH interview or something where he said he kept bringing Duncan back because he was a fan favorite and he was continually pressured into writing more Dune books...

I am positive I read somewhere in an interview that Frank indeed returned Duncan at the request of the many fans who disliked him being killed in Dune.

Me too. If you can recall where, please let me know.

[Hunchback Jack]

I swear I read a FH interview or something where he said he kept bringing Duncan back because he was a fan favorite and he was continually pressured into writing more Dune books...

In the interview at the end of the Hunter's audiobook, BriBri *claimed* that was the reason FH brought Duncan back in DM.

I don't buy it, myself. Duncan wasn't much of a character in Dune - not as much as other minor characters, anyway - and Duncan/Hayt clearly had a very specific purpose in DM, as someone loyal to Paul whom Paul would have a deeply personal connection to. So I find it hard to believe that FH only brought Duncan back due to fan pressure.

What I suspect is more likely is that FH brought Duncan back in *GEoD* due to fan pressure, as he had become a cooler character by then, and his death in CoD was pretty unglamorous. (But used him as the "everyman" who sees Leto's world as we do, as an outsider, I agree).

Incidentally:

Because that story arc was complete, humanity is "infinite" and can no longer be endangered by any one threat.

Duncan was a fan favorite, he's an "everyman" that fans can connect with in a the new setting.

I'm not sure I agree with that. In his Pandora series, Frank and Bill Ransom kept the theme going throughout, and never let go of the idea of the expansion of humanity via a sentient kelp/planet. I don't think he'd stop DUNE that way either. Frank was notorious for not giving a cr@p about fan favorites. Look what he did to Paul? He could've made Paul into this superhero mythos but chose to dismantle him. I don't think it's unfair to say that some of that was washing through his mind with Leto II when he started in on Heretics and Chapterhouse.

Is it just me, or did Byron pretty much miss the point of your post about Duncan?

HBJ

[TheDukester]

I remain unconvinced that Byron Merritt has ever read Dune.

[SandRider]

Is it just me, or did Byron pretty much miss the point of your post about Duncan?

I remain unconvinced that Byron Merritt has ever read Dune.

not only that, the little maggot hasn't read Frank's interviews
or essays, either. Anybody remember a retard Over There asking
him if Frank had planned out the whole series before publishing
Dune, and Merritt answered that Frank had written the first book
as a single work, then devised and wrote Messiah and the Children,
or words to that effect.

now granted, Ban-stick hadn't been born when Frank clearly described
the writing of the trilogy to McNelly in 1967, but you would think
that the grandson (the grandson, dammit, respect mah a-thor-i-TEE)
and the admin of the "Official Dune Forum" might've given it a
cursory look-see.

or maybe read the intro to one of the later books,
altho at the time of Heretic's publishing, the Herbert
Brain-trust might not've learned to read yet.

what ? What's that you say, Freak ?

Parts of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were written before Dune was
completed. They fleshed out more in the writing, but the essential story
remained intact.
~FH, Intro to HoD

yeah, Bryon Merritt, grandson of Frank Herbert.

Leto wept.

[lotek]

Leto wept.

yeah good idea that, give water to those people dead to all decency and self-consciousness!

[SandRider]

good point.

[Freakzilla]

Which brings me to Farok's regenerating arm. When we first meet him in DM, Scytale notices his empty sleeve. Then one page later, Farok is clasping his hands in his lap. Now this has been called an inconsistancy, but nowhere is it mentioned that he had only one arm. Just an empty sleeve. Could it be his arm was in a sling? Wounded, where he wasn't able to put it into his sleeve. This theory, however, is also not mentioned. Ho hum.

Not to mention if something like this took place in one of BH and KJA's Dune books, those that dislike the new Dune novels would scream "Inconsistency!" And then when a rationalization such as you postulated was given, they'd completely disregard it.

Not a FH inconsistancy. Farok had three arms.

[lotek]

Which brings me to Farok's regenerating arm. When we first meet him in DM, Scytale notices his empty sleeve. Then one page later, Farok is clasping his hands in his lap. Now this has been called an inconsistancy, but nowhere is it mentioned that he had only one arm. Just an empty sleeve. Could it be his arm was in a sling? Wounded, where he wasn't able to put it into his sleeve. This theory, however, is also not mentioned. Ho hum.

Not to mention if something like this took place in one of BH and KJA's Dune books, those that dislike the new Dune novels would scream "Inconsistency!" And then when a rationalization such as you postulated was given, they'd completely disregard it.

Not a FH inconsistancy. Farok had three arms.

in fact he was called Farok the Well Hung

[SandRider]

Which brings me to Farok's regenerating arm. When we first meet him in DM, Scytale notices his empty sleeve. Then one page later, Farok is clasping his hands in his lap. Now this has been called an inconsistancy, but nowhere is it mentioned that he had only one arm. Just an empty sleeve. Could it be his arm was in a sling? Wounded, where he wasn't able to put it into his sleeve. This theory, however, is also not mentioned. Ho hum.

Not to mention if something like this took place in one of BH and KJA's Dune books, those that dislike the new Dune novels would scream "Inconsistency!" And then when a rationalization such as you postulated was given, they'd completely disregard it.

Not a FH inconsistancy. Farok had three arms.

if Merritt would've read The Notes, he'd've known that.

[Omphalos]

Which brings me to Farok's regenerating arm. When we first meet him in DM, Scytale notices his empty sleeve. Then one page later, Farok is clasping his hands in his lap. Now this has been called an inconsistancy, but nowhere is it mentioned that he had only one arm. Just an empty sleeve. Could it be his arm was in a sling? Wounded, where he wasn't able to put it into his sleeve. This theory, however, is also not mentioned. Ho hum.

Not to mention if something like this took place in one of BH and KJA's Dune books, those that dislike the new Dune novels would scream "Inconsistency!" And then when a rationalization such as you postulated was given, they'd completely disregard it.

Not a FH inconsistancy. Farok had three arms.

if Merritt would've read The Notes, he'd've known that.

Every time I go to the FH archive in Fullerton I make sure to keep an eye out for that missing arm.

[Freakzilla]

Does anyone have any idea why Part I in my copy of The Battle of Corrin is 69 B.G.? Isn't it supposed to be 108 B.G.?

I believe they have the first two dates switched. But I only read it once.

That's what happens when you speak perfect prose into a dictation machine and have your secratary do the actual typing.

Writers write.

[SandRider]

wow, just begging for the ban-stick now, eh ?

this should be posted over in "posts I think will be deleted",
(being examples of the things-not-mentioned Over There)
(which I know you know, Freak, just making a general
observation, which I also know you know that I know)
(that Merritt doesn't know, you know ?)

unless you think this post should be deleted and Bizarro-Freakzilla reprimanded,
and you're edging up to a Blaze of Glory ....

[Freakzilla]

...unless you think this post should be deleted and Bizarro-Freakzilla reprimanded,
and you're edging up to a Blaze of Glory ....

I think all my posts there should.

[Freakzilla]

Some guy there trying to school me on Children of Dune ang the GP:

Paul did not see the Golden Path.

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."
~Children of Dune

The Scattering was just the first step in the Golden Path. The idea being to spread humanity out so that there would always be some people somewhere.

And what is the Golden Path? you ask. It is the
survival of humankind, nothing more nor less.
~God Emperor of Dune

Paul DID see the Golden Path. He asked if Kralizec were necessary, not because he didn't know the answer, but because his mind shied away from the responsibility.

Did Paul tell you this? Are you priveliged to information we are not?

Bear in mind that Paul was not pre-born, and thus had a normal conscience, personality and identity; Leto II was pre-born, and had no personality of his own other than that which he scavenged from his ancestral memories.

Leto II was nine-years-old before he was forced to integrate his OM in a spice trance.

This is why Leto II seemed so inhuman at times; why every word that passed his lips had calculated portent, and he was not given to idle comments; and why he had what it took to assume the sandtrout skin that would make him live long centuries, give him the superhuman powers that would enable tyranny, and brutally enforce on humanity the rigid circumstances which would force it into that one path that would ensure the survival of humanity.

Paul could see that same path. But, he was more human. Could he accept the sandtrout skin and live thousands of years? No doubt he was physically able to do so - but emotionally and mentally? Could he force humanity down that one path of survival? He could hardly stand the Jihads unleashed in his name! To enslave humanity, to butcher countless individuals, to enforce an eugenic breeding scheme, to impose a superstitious religion - what mortal conscience could withstand the moral responsibility of causing such fear, repression, death and tyranny, even knowing the alternative was extinction of mankind?

"I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"

Even knowing the answer, he asked the question from the depths of his human soul.

I quoted the text to you, if you want to base your opinions on what is not there there is no point in discussing this.

Paul said he DID NOT SEE the extinction of humanity among the choices, therefore the lesson that Leto wanted to enforce on humanity was just brutal and not necessity.

The difference between Paul and Leto II was that Paul was noble born and Leto was Fremen born.

Again from Children of Dune:

"For a time they'll call me the missionary of shaitan, too," Leto said.
"Then they'll begin to wonder and, finally, they'll understand. You didn't take
your vision far enough, father. Your hands did good things and evil."
"But the evil was known after the event!"
"Which is the way of many great evils," Leto said. "You crossed over only
into a part of my vision. Was your strength not enough?"
"You know I couldn't stay there. I could never do an evil act which was
known before the act. I'm not Jacurutu." He clambered to his feet. "Do you think
me one of those who laughs alone at night?"
"It is sad that you were never really Fremen," Leto said. "We Fremen know
how to commission the arifa. Our judges can choose between evils. It's always
been that way for us."

Whether Paul chose not to look or what, he still didn't see it an no amount of cr@p you make up will change the text.

[A Thing of Eternity]

I saw that, nice response!

[A Thing of Eternity]

Oh, and now he's replied, the fight is on!

[DuneFishUK]

"Good God man, haven't you read the books?"

[Freakzilla]

Once or twice...

http://forum.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/view ... 0083#70083" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Freakzilla]

All too easy.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Hey, I see he just joined here.

He's actually done a pretty good job debating you on this one, he's got me halfway convinced that Paul saw the GP (having just finished CoD I definitely got the impression that Paul did not see the GP, but I will agree with this guy that Paul's seeing the Sandtrout Skin but not the path is confusing, I think I need some clarification on that. What did Paul see the Skin being used for? I guess there could be lots of other potential uses for being nearly invincible and extending one's life thousands of years...)