Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby SandChigger » 19 Jun 2010 09:41

(Sorry about that! :P )

I would tend to say, though, that the passage about the Rossak drug implies that it created true Reverend Mothers with Other Memory. Essentially any poison narcotic that brought on a near death experience with awareness of the little "psychokinesthetic extension" mote like that Jessica used to reconfigure the WoL would do the trick. But not as well as the spice essence/WoL.


(Edit: I'm not really happy with some of that. There's a bit of inconsistency in the originals IMHO, starting with FH's use of "spice essence", etc. If the earlier BG could use other narcotic poisons to create RMs and open up Other Memory, why couldn't the later ones have done the same when the spice became scarce? [To create new RMs from acolytes, I mean. Any RM who had used spice to become one was addicted to it, of course, and had to have it.] Maybe using the spice had some effect on subsequent generations that rendered them incapable of using the other, older alternatives?)

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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Ghanima Atreides » 19 Jun 2010 10:53

SandChigger wrote:(Edit: I'm not really happy with some of that. There's a bit of inconsistency in the originals IMHO, starting with FH's use of "spice essence", etc. If the earlier BG could use other narcotic poisons to create RMs and open up Other Memory, why couldn't the later ones have done the same when the spice became scarce? [To create new RMs from acolytes, I mean. Any RM who had used spice to become one was addicted to it, of course, and had to have it.] Maybe using the spice had some effect on subsequent generations that rendered them incapable of using the other, older alternatives?)


That's what I'm thinking too. Especially during Leto's reign, when spice was extremely scarce and rationed according to his whims. That first quote from Heretics however, goes even a bit further than what I originally wrote:

"The Spacing Guild might want melange to to trance-form its Navigators, but they could substitute Ixian machinery. Ix and its subsidiaries competed in the Guild's markets. They had alternatives.

We have none."


Emphasis being mine.

I have to agree that there is some kind of inconsistency here, and I think Frank might have originally intended the Sisterhood to use non-melange based drugs for the creation of RMs, but his concept of melange dependency evolved in time. After all, dependency on various substances/feelings/ideas/etc is a theme often explored especially in the later books.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby D Pope » 19 Jun 2010 11:52

I don't think there's that much of an incosistancy, try this;


You get to RM status by changing a poison & that unlocks OM, more or less right?

More than one poison can do this. Like more than one pill can cure a headache.

WoL excludes other poisons, once you've done the worm juice nothing else will do.

As the sisterhood evolves, so does the definition of RM- to include sharing.

Sharing only happens with the WoL, so with the new definition, the old others no longer work.

As for blue within blue eyes, you can be addicted without being saturated.


Does this concept hold water? The only problem i've got is during Leto IIs reign, why weren't there spice mothers & other mothers? Perhaps the answer is again sharing, if a spice mother can't do telepathy with an other mother then she can't share her BG sausages.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Jun 2010 12:19

Leto was still pushing spice on them. Not long after he died, it became plentiful again.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby D Pope » 19 Jun 2010 12:30

I was just thinking that with limited spice & dwindling numbers, the BG would've been rabid for alternitives.

Do you think the rest of it works?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Jun 2010 13:15

Yes, but we have no proof that the BG didn't Share before spice.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Jun 2010 13:33

I wouldn't include Sharing in the definition of a RM. It seems to be only for emergencies. The only example of a true BG RM is Murbella and she doesn't share until well after her essence overdose.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby D Pope » 19 Jun 2010 13:37

My fault. Two kinds of sharing, at the agony- like Jessica, & later, like touchig heads. I don't have a problem with not making BG sausages a requirement, I just figgured that RMs were BG & that would be a part of it.

True, there's no reason to think they couldn't do the head touch before, I just thought of it as an aquired ability.

(edit) This is where I went off the track, I misunderstood what you meant by sharing.
Last edited by D Pope on 20 Jun 2010 01:31, edited 1 time in total.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Jun 2010 14:25

You're confusing me...Jessica and Ramallo were touching, IIRC. Thus initiating the Sharing.

Someone eased her to a sitting position. She saw the old Reverend Mother
Ramallo being brought to sit beside her on the carpeted ledge. A dry hand
touched her neck.


That was after she had changed the water of life.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby SandChigger » 19 Jun 2010 23:21

Another point in favor of there being evolution in the way they reacted to the WoL, which IIRC Freak has brought up before, is that Jessica doesn't really seem to experience an "Agony" like later BG. (Remember that Paul repeatedly asks her if she is alright, and if it is OK for him to drink as well... not exactly the reaction you would expect if she'd just been writhing about in apparent agony.)

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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 00:07

SandChigger wrote:Another point in favor of there being evolution in the way they reacted to the WoL, which IIRC Freak has brought up before, is that Jessica doesn't really seem to experience an "Agony" like later BG. (Remember that Paul repeatedly asks her if she is alright, and if it is OK for him to drink as well... not exactly the reaction you would expect if she'd just been writhing about in apparent agony.)


One theory I have for this is...

...wait for it...

...Leto's breeding program made the Atreides more sensitive to spice. I believe he implies that either with Siona or in Moneo's remembrance of his test.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby D Pope » 20 Jun 2010 00:32

I was thinking there were two kinds of sharing.

First; after Jessica changed the water of life, RM Romallo shared her OM. This was possible because of the telepathic properties of the WoL.

Second; in the later books, RMs could share by touching their foreheads, an instant mind exchange. I agree, there's no info saying they couldn't share this way in Dune, but assuming this second method was a trick learned after LetoII could explain some seeming inconsistancies with other drugs the BG used before the spice became THE drug.

Sandchigger wrote: Another point in favor of there being evolution in the way they reacted to the WoL, which IIRC Freak has brought up before, is that Jessica doesn't really seem to experience an "Agony" like later BG. (Remember that Paul repeatedly asks her if she is alright, and if it is OK for him to drink as well... not exactly the reaction you would expect if she'd just been writhing about in apparent agony.)


That's a good point! I'd not given that a lot of thought, thanks mate!
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby SandChigger » 20 Jun 2010 02:51

(Thank Freak. ;) )

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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby SadisticCynic » 20 Jun 2010 07:41

D Pope wrote:I was thinking there were two kinds of sharing.

First; after Jessica changed the water of life, RM Romallo shared her OM. This was possible because of the telepathic properties of the WoL.

Second; in the later books, RMs could share by touching their foreheads, an instant mind exchange. I agree, there's no info saying they couldn't share this way in Dune, but assuming this second method was a trick learned after LetoII could explain some seeming inconsistancies with other drugs the BG used before the spice became THE drug.


I think there is a quote about Sharing being only possible 'in extremis'. Thus the Sharing in all those occasions was possible due to the possibility of death from the drug overdose, no? Not sure if there is a contradiction there in light of that.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby MrFlibble » 20 Jun 2010 07:49

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Another point in favor of there being evolution in the way they reacted to the WoL, which IIRC Freak has brought up before, is that Jessica doesn't really seem to experience an "Agony" like later BG. (Remember that Paul repeatedly asks her if she is alright, and if it is OK for him to drink as well... not exactly the reaction you would expect if she'd just been writhing about in apparent agony.)


One theory I have for this is...

...wait for it...

...Leto's breeding program made the Atreides more sensitive to spice. I believe he implies that either with Siona or in Moneo's remembrance of his test.

Except Murbella was not Atreides, and her initiation as a reverend Mother was really an Agony.

SandChigger is quite right in asking the question about the "spice essence". As we know, the Water of Life resulted from a young worm drowned in water. What the BG used for the Agony, on the other hand, was (as I understand it) created directly from spice melange. Or am I wrong about this? :|
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby SadisticCynic » 20 Jun 2010 07:54

MrFlibble wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Another point in favor of there being evolution in the way they reacted to the WoL, which IIRC Freak has brought up before, is that Jessica doesn't really seem to experience an "Agony" like later BG. (Remember that Paul repeatedly asks her if she is alright, and if it is OK for him to drink as well... not exactly the reaction you would expect if she'd just been writhing about in apparent agony.)


One theory I have for this is...

...wait for it...

...Leto's breeding program made the Atreides more sensitive to spice. I believe he implies that either with Siona or in Moneo's remembrance of his test.

Except Murbella was not Atreides, and her initiation as a reverend Mother was really an Agony.

SandChigger is quite right in asking the question about the "spice essence". As we know, the Water of Life resulted from a young worm drowned in water. What the BG used for the Agony, on the other hand, was (as I understand it) created directly from spice melange. Or am I wrong about this? :|


I believe you're right. The Water of Life is the changed Water of Death from the drowned worm. The Agony's that we witness in the later books are brought about from an overdose of concentrated melange.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 09:01

Murbella was from Gammu and had the Siona Gene. She only stayed in the no-ship to be with Duncan.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby D Pope » 20 Jun 2010 09:03

SandChigger wrote:(Thank Freak. ;) )

That's a great catch Freak, Well Done!
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 09:04

SadisticCynic wrote:
MrFlibble wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Another point in favor of there being evolution in the way they reacted to the WoL, which IIRC Freak has brought up before, is that Jessica doesn't really seem to experience an "Agony" like later BG. (Remember that Paul repeatedly asks her if she is alright, and if it is OK for him to drink as well... not exactly the reaction you would expect if she'd just been writhing about in apparent agony.)


One theory I have for this is...

...wait for it...

...Leto's breeding program made the Atreides more sensitive to spice. I believe he implies that either with Siona or in Moneo's remembrance of his test.

Except Murbella was not Atreides, and her initiation as a reverend Mother was really an Agony.

SandChigger is quite right in asking the question about the "spice essence". As we know, the Water of Life resulted from a young worm drowned in water. What the BG used for the Agony, on the other hand, was (as I understand it) created directly from spice melange. Or am I wrong about this? :|


I believe you're right. The Water of Life is the changed Water of Death from the drowned worm. The Agony's that we witness in the later books are brought about from an overdose of concentrated melange.


Latter day BG used spice essence.

WoL is the dying exhalation of a drowned stunted worm. It is changed when a RM converts it.

WoD is is what Paul threatened to use to destroy the spice. WoL place above a spice blow.
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby D Pope » 20 Jun 2010 09:17

SadisticCynic wrote: think there is a quote about Sharing being only possible 'in extremis'. Thus the Sharing in all those occasions was possible due to the possibility of death from the drug overdose, no? Not sure if there is a contradiction there in light of that.

There's a passage i've not looked up for a more direct quote in HoD or Chapterhouse where top tier RMs are eating in a big dining room & Mother Supirior asks/orders two RMs to share.(I think one of them was Sheanna?) This was done almost casually & everyone else turned around to look because they felt when it happened.

The converted WoL is definately a catalyst for telepathy, that's what made the sietch orgy such a hit! Paul & Chani talk about this.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 09:46

There could be no deception in this total mixing of minds, this ultimate candor
powered by imminent and certain death or the poisonous melange essence that
ancient Fremen had rightly called "the little death."

~CH:D
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 11:18

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Another point in favor of there being evolution in the way they reacted to the WoL, which IIRC Freak has brought up before, is that Jessica doesn't really seem to experience an "Agony" like later BG. (Remember that Paul repeatedly asks her if she is alright, and if it is OK for him to drink as well... not exactly the reaction you would expect if she'd just been writhing about in apparent agony.)


One theory I have for this is...

...wait for it...

...Leto's breeding program made the Atreides more sensitive to spice. I believe he implies that either with Siona or in Moneo's remembrance of his test.


:cylon101:

"These little curled flaps beside my face," he said. "Tease one of them gently
with a finger and it will give up drops of moisture heavily laced with spice essence."
He saw the recognition in her eyes. Memories which she did not know as memories
were speaking to her. And she was the result of many generations in which the
Atreides sensitivity had been increased.

~GEoD
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby MrFlibble » 22 Jun 2010 05:46

Freakzilla wrote:Murbella was from Gammu and had the Siona Gene. She only stayed in the no-ship to be with Duncan.

Duh, I forgot that :doh:
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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby lotek » 22 Jun 2010 05:50

Freakzilla wrote:"These little curled flaps beside my face," he said. "Tease one of them gently
with a finger and it will give up drops of moisture heavily laced with spice essence."

~GEoD


and I forgot about that!
:shock:
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Why Weren't RM Mohiam's Eyes Blue?

Postby MrFlibble » 22 Jun 2010 06:04

Actually at some point I decided that figuring the possible differences between the Water of Life, spice essence, spice gas, the liquid Leto II fed to Siona etc. would be too mind-boggling, and just stopped caring :D

BTW, regarding the "spice essence": in GEoD, the BG delegation attempts to assassinate Leto with "spice essence", which is described as blue liquid. Leto asks them where'd they get it, and Anteac tells him they bought it from smuggles some 2.5 thousand years before. The whole conversation, in my opinion, indicates that the BG did not use the "spice essence" (in the sense this word is used in that scene, at least) to create Reverend Mothers. They used the spice they'd get directly from Leto (I think he mentions somewhere in conversation with Moneo that the BG depend on him heavily because of this), but I have no idea whether it was just a large dose/overdose of spice, or some result of its chemical processing.
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