Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"


Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, SandRider

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by SandChigger »

Slugger wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
"The lxians contemplated making a weapon—a type of hunter-seeker, self-propelled death with a machine mind. It was to be designed as a self improving thing which would seek out life and reduce that life to its inorganic matter."
I've always read that as the Ixians creating some type of nanobots and the situation went Gray Goo (think Beserkers of von Neumann probes).
Or a piranha thingy from the Legends? ;) :lol:
SandChigger wrote: I'm always reminded by this of the NOMAD (sp?) probe in that original Star Trek episode: it collided with an alien probe and the two rebuilt themselves into one, with a deadly new interpretation of their original "seek out and analyze alien life." ;)
V'ger?
Nope, NOMAD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_(Star_Trek" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) ;)
User avatar
Mr. Melange
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 May 2014 12:14
Location: Certainly not Arrakis.

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by Mr. Melange »

Alright, so first point, I think it could be possible the Enemies of Many Faces are simply a democratic order as a result of the scattering. It may also be true that on top of this that most people of the scattering are now the independent face dancers. Since the Tleilaxu already seem to possess extreme loyalty to things, it does not seem too far off that these new face dancers could make a TRUE democracy.
Next point, I don't know how much of you guys are in to LotR (im assuming all of you), but one of the main point in the lore of the series is how elves are immortal and man is not. When men die, they are freed of the bonds of this world while the Elves just go to the Halls of Mandos to sing sad songs. This seperation (with the help pf Morgoth) made mankind's proverbial flame stronger, yet they were less at peace.
Taking this idea to Dune, because fuck you, what the Bene Gesserit/Old Empire may represent is the last bastion of true humans, making the humans who left for the scattering either being too spacially distant, or a face dancer, something arguably not human. I also mean to say the Honored Matres are something totally human, in that they are driven as fuck.
I totally just shit this out, so sorry for the shit first post, but generally Im trying to say that I doubt FH would have made Dune 7 into a battle with some new faction. I think he instead would have gone more into what it means to be human.
Last edited by Mr. Melange on 29 Jul 2014 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse
User avatar
Mr. Melange
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 May 2014 12:14
Location: Certainly not Arrakis.

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by Mr. Melange »

Sorry, i didn't even mention Marty and Daniel but i could theorize a hundred different things for them. I do not 100% believe my previous theory so Ide rather not push on you guys how i can get them to fit into what I said. Im sure you can figure that out.
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse
User avatar
JasonJD48
Posts: 76
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 19:26
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by JasonJD48 »

The decline of Ix is interesting, I wonder if in fact it isn't in part because of frequent infiltration. If I recall correctly they are infiltrated by the Tleilaxu in all of the latter three books and at-least once by the Bene Gesserit as well. They do have the no-field and their scheme with Malky and Hwi, but those were in play well before the Face Dancer infiltration.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Arthur C. Clarke
User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18454
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by Freakzilla »

JasonJD48 wrote:The decline of Ix is interesting, I wonder if in fact it isn't in part because of frequent infiltration. If I recall correctly they are infiltrated by the Tleilaxu in all of the latter three books and at-least once by the Bene Gesserit as well. They do have the no-field and their scheme with Malky and Hwi, but those were in play well before the Face Dancer infiltration.
In GEoD we only know that they had infiltrated the Ixian embassy in Onn. RM Anteac was sent with the Fish Speakers to invade Ix in search of the place of Hwi's birth but that wasn't a BG opperation.

In the latter two books the Ixians hadn't invented anything noteworthy in centuries and were essentially a non-player.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
User avatar
JasonJD48
Posts: 76
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 19:26
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by JasonJD48 »

Freakzilla wrote:
JasonJD48 wrote:The decline of Ix is interesting, I wonder if in fact it isn't in part because of frequent infiltration. If I recall correctly they are infiltrated by the Tleilaxu in all of the latter three books and at-least once by the Bene Gesserit as well. They do have the no-field and their scheme with Malky and Hwi, but those were in play well before the Face Dancer infiltration.
In GEoD we only know that they had infiltrated the Ixian embassy in Onn. RM Anteac was sent with the Fish Speakers to invade Ix in search of the place of Hwi's birth but that wasn't a BG opperation.

In the latter two books the Ixians hadn't invented anything noteworthy in centuries and were essentially a non-player.
You are right, it was their embassy that was overrun by Face Dancers, but the Bene Gesserit find this out through their own spy among the Ixians if I'm not mistaken. Seems like they were very lax in security.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Arthur C. Clarke
User avatar
PrajnaBinduBashar
Posts: 1
Joined: 24 Oct 2020 06:41
Location: Vietnam by way of OH
Contact:

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by PrajnaBinduBashar »

Hey Fedaykin friendos, I'm new here, but love me the original Dune books and the great Frank Herbert. Rereading Heretics rn. :bow-yellow: :animals-worm: :idea:

I gotta say, I don't think the point is necessarily who M&D are, but rather that Duncan's consciousness had evolved sufficiently to see beyond the human evolutionary perception of reality as 3 dimensions plus time. Duncan's awareness allowed transcendence to observe another dimension of reality and had the strength to withstand the shock of it. FH was very interested in transcendental meditation, and it's expression in various religions. I hope they would continue to help the evolution of humanity in D7, but que sera sera :occasion-happyhalloween: :romance-grouphug: Anyway y'all take it easy out there
User avatar
Mr. Teg
Moderator
Posts: 708
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:14
Location: Chair
Contact:

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by Mr. Teg »

SandRider wrote: 05 Nov 2010 14:44
is it possible that what is happening is a re-play of the Butlerian Jihad,
with Tleilaxu-styled biological technology in the role of Thinking Machines ?
That actually is very interesting...
More so because yesterday I read a quote BH said his father had mentioned doing something related to the Butlerian Jihad with him before he died (but didn't mention the details to him). So kind of in the (Jurassic) ball park of that topic. Tracks better than Kevin's killer droids. And what you are suggesting feels more like how do say the progression of the philosophical threads of Frank's book (as opposed to the scenes, themes and plot points of the new books because that would be cool zoom zoom boom boom). :cylon101:
CHOAM
Combine Herbert Ober Anderson Mercantile, Narf!
Brian, Kevin & Byron :? :cylon101: :roll: The HLP
georgiedenbro
Posts: 1043
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by georgiedenbro »

I think that both the issue of thinking machines and that of possession in the case of the BG are very similar. In both cases human freedom becomes subjugated to some other force. In the case of thinking machines you give up your thinking capacity and let the machines do it for you, and also make room for other humans to use them to enslave you. In the case of possession you give up the needs of the present and the future in order to serve voices from the past. The question is whether M&D are a manifestation of something like this. Or maybe they are an escape from this. One thing that I think seems relevant is the question of what happens to a face dancer when they take on a persona: does it change them in some important way, or is it just an 'act'. I would think that living out someone else's life would really change you, whether you want it to or not. That is also a perennial theme in the Dune series going back to Dune itself. For M&D to accumulate so many personas, they must be either some kind of amalgamation of those personas (abominations?) or maybe something new. Unlike Alia, they seem quite peaceful in their temperament from what we see of them, so whatever it is they've become it isn't tempestuous or chaotic as we would expect from a possession. Maybe it's the fact that they can activate the persona/memories of one person at a time that lets them digest it more easily than having the entire human race in your OM clamoring for attention?

One thing I can see as having a Butlerian jihad-esque element is the Net, which would certainly be an imposing and unacceptable element in the environment for everyone aware of M&D. I imagine all peoples everywhere might be inclined to unite to destroy any being trying to impose control over whatever the Net controls.
Last edited by georgiedenbro on 04 Jul 2023 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"
distrans
Posts: 483
Joined: 04 Jan 2013 01:06

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by distrans »

Mr. Teg wrote: 13 Jun 2023 04:28
SandRider wrote: 05 Nov 2010 14:44
is it possible that what is happening is a re-play of the Butlerian Jihad,
with Tleilaxu-styled biological technology in the role of Thinking Machines ?
That actually is very interesting...
More so because yesterday I read a quote BH said his father had mentioned doing something related to the Butlerian Jihad with him before he died (but didn't mention the details to him).

how did you get over the obvious youd been taken for a ride by a hackster and managed to abandon your we here think to keep the fuckers out and spread the words of that goddamned bastard not only down the line but here???


your water is due NOW.
User avatar
Mr. Teg
Moderator
Posts: 708
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:14
Location: Chair
Contact:

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by Mr. Teg »

distrans wrote: 27 Jun 2023 21:41
Mr. Teg wrote: 13 Jun 2023 04:28
SandRider wrote: 05 Nov 2010 14:44
is it possible that what is happening is a re-play of the Butlerian Jihad,
with Tleilaxu-styled biological technology in the role of Thinking Machines ?
That actually is very interesting...
More so because yesterday I read a quote BH said his father had mentioned doing something related to the Butlerian Jihad with him before he died (but didn't mention the details to him).

how did you get over the obvious youd been taken for a ride by a hackster and managed to abandon your we here think to keep the fuckers out and spread the words of that goddamned bastard not only down the line but here???


your water is due NOW.


What was abandoned?
Can you be more specific?
You want Sandrider's water??
CHOAM
Combine Herbert Ober Anderson Mercantile, Narf!
Brian, Kevin & Byron :? :cylon101: :roll: The HLP
User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18454
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by Freakzilla »

:crazy:
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
georgiedenbro
Posts: 1043
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by georgiedenbro »

I think he was trying to show solidarity with the Herbertarian cause by objecting to the idea that something BH said matters.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"
distrans
Posts: 483
Joined: 04 Jan 2013 01:06

Re: Marty & Daniel: "Stop spying on us!"

Post by distrans »

yes.
note the scurry to indite as if theyre voices arent begging elsewhere good questions are ignored...
Post Reply