Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)


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xcalibur
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Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)

Post by xcalibur »

I decided to copy the summary of my results to the top of the first post to make matters a bit easier. Below, you'll find the process of how I revised and worked this out.

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Fremen water measurement is base-32, so that each unit consists of 32 parts of the next smaller unit. The units are:

liters > fluid ounces > drachms > minims

1 minim in Dune is less than a single drop of water, while the rest are similar to their real-world counterparts. I estimate that minims are smaller than a normal drop by 60%, and if this relation differs (40-60%), L/fl oz/dr would have to be larger as an offset (20-0%), allowing a 5% error (±1 minim). All this is based on analysis of the text and contextual knowledge. It was Frank Herbert's style to leave intentional blanks, giving us just enough clues to connect the dots, as I just did. So to be more specific, the deathstill produced 33 liters, 0 fl oz (0/32), 7 drachms (7/1024), and 3 minims (3/32,768).
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Sometimes I focus in and research particular details, and this is one of those times. We're given hints as to how Fremen measured water, but how do we flesh out their measurement system? There seems to be a lack of info on this. Other than a reddit thread, there's the Dune Wiki page on Water Rings, which contains info from the Encyclopedia which I'd rather avoid.

So, going by the evidence in the original text, contextual knowledge and a bit of reasoning:

After Jamis' death, the deathstill produced 33 liters, 7 drachms, and 3/32s. Since a drachm is divided into 32, some comments I've read presume that a liter was 32 drachms, so that the smallest unit was 1/1024 of a liter, or just under 1 milliliter. But, this is incorrect, because one of their units was left out of this figure. This makes sense on multiple points: first of all, a real-world drachm is a division of a fluid ounce, which suggests that its Dune equivalent likewise divides a unit smaller than a liter; especially since there are close to 32 fluid ounces in a liter, which fits the pattern. Secondly, Lady Jessica refers to "superb accuracy in water measurement", and the smallest unit being close to 1 mL doesn't quite cut it. However, if we add a fluid ounce (or whatever the unknown unit is called), then a drachm would be about 1 mL, and the smallest unit would be 1/32 of a mL (thereabouts).

There is a difficulty, in that 1 mL contains only 20 drops of water, not 32, but this can be explained away. First, there's the difference between 1/1000 and 1/1024, and the difference of metric rounding, which should bring it up a little (eta-insignificant); it's also likely that a Fremen drop/minim would be smaller than its real-world counterpart, bringing the number higher. But more importantly, we can assume that Fremen units are somewhat different than their real-world counterparts. This is a reasonable assumption, given that Frank Herbert made sure to transform things from Old Earth, and we see that in the Fremen's hybridization of the Standard and Metric systems, combining easy division with even scalability, borrowing from the strengths of both systems. Further evidence that the units are somewhat different is the amount from the deathstill, just over 33 liters, despite the fact that the adult male human body contains 40-45 liters (eta-this can be explained away without scaling up units). Even accounting for water loss from being killed in combat, the figure seems too low for real-world metric liters, especially given Fremen prevention of losses and the high efficiency of their deathstills (both of which are safe assumptions). Thus, it seems that Dune liters are somewhat larger by approximately 1/4 to 1/5. Going by this, we find the measurements add up correctly. That brings us close to the amount of water in the body (minus losses); it also closes the gap nicely on the smallest measurement.

So, the Fremen liter is roughly 20-25% larger than our liters (15-30% at least/most), which is divided into 32 fluid ounces(?), which are then divided into 32 drachms, each containing 32 drops of water. Measuring down to less than a drop (minim?) would certainly qualify as superb accuracy, and fits what we know of Fremen water discipline and craftsmanship.

Questions/comments/corrections welcome! eta: corrections made, updates below.
Last edited by xcalibur on 12 Feb 2024 13:16, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)

Post by Serkanner »

xcalibur wrote: 12 Dec 2022 16:32 Further evidence that the units are somewhat different is the amount from the deathstill, just over 33 liters, despite the fact that the adult male human body contains 40-45 liters. Even accounting for water loss from being killed in combat, the figure seems too low for real-world metric liters, especially given Fremen prevention of losses and the high efficiency of their deathstills (both of which are safe assumptions).
I don't think the 33 liters is too low. Fremen having less water fat bodies than "we" do is perfectly reasonable considering the place where they live and they do for many generations already. There are many references in the book showing Fremen are "skinny" people and by definition skinny bodies contain less water.
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Re: Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)

Post by xcalibur »

Serkanner wrote: 13 Dec 2022 03:32
xcalibur wrote: 12 Dec 2022 16:32 Further evidence that the units are somewhat different is the amount from the deathstill, just over 33 liters, despite the fact that the adult male human body contains 40-45 liters. Even accounting for water loss from being killed in combat, the figure seems too low for real-world metric liters, especially given Fremen prevention of losses and the high efficiency of their deathstills (both of which are safe assumptions).
I don't think the 33 liters is too low. Fremen having less water fat bodies than "we" do is perfectly reasonable considering the place where they live and they do for many generations already. There are many references in the book showing Fremen are "skinny" people and by definition skinny bodies contain less water.
I considered this (although not explicitly), which is why I was aiming for 40 or high 30s. edited, having done my own calculations, a wiry build could indeed lower water weight by that much, I was misled by the 40-45 figure, which doesn't apply to all.

At the very least, my basic outline of liters > fl oz > drachms > minims, with a radix of 32, must be correct, since it's consistent. When I realized that irl liters have either 33 or 35 fl oz (depending on who you ask), which is close enough to 32, that's when I knew I was on the right track. eta: turns out, 1 fl. oz. has about 30 mL! So that's even more consistency with the 32 radix (since the units would be adjusted somewhat).

This is tricky, because I'm trying to make up two discrepancies in the given clues: first, 33 liters vs ~40, and 20 drops per mL as opposed to 32 for a Fremen drachm. There are other ways to deal with this: smaller drops/minims, water loss, and the safe assumption that Fremen had less water weight, but how much less? Jamis' physique is described as having very low body-fat, but he had muscles, which contain lots of water, which complicates matters. ...
eta again: I did a bit of calculation, and Serk may be right. If Jamis were 150 lbs, with 50% water weight, that would come out to about 34 liters, which is close enough (including losses). Of course, we don't know Jamis' specs, so this is educated guesswork, but it's at least plausible that the units are not scaled up. But if they're not, then minims must be that much smaller than their real-world counterparts, by up to 60% assuming no change to other units (because of the difference of 20 vs 32). Apparently, there are 60 microdrips per mL (used in IV), and I certainly wouldn't put it past the Fremen to be more precise than a single drop. I was thinking one way (scaling up) and not the other (scaling down), when it could easily be the latter or both, given my realization on the water weight issue. Long-term adaptation and use of spice are also important variables, which would explain Fremen physiology being atypical.
Last edited by xcalibur on 15 Dec 2022 16:27, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)

Post by xcalibur »

to summarize (I normally wouldn't post consecutively, but I want to call attention to my current findings. Also, pardon my multiple edits, I've had to revise my ideas, since correcting mistakes is part and parcel of science)

Fremen water measurement is base-32, so that each unit consists of 32 parts of the next smaller unit. The units are:

liters > fluid ounces > drachms > minims

1 minim in Dune is less than a single drop of water, while the rest are similar to their real-world counterparts. I estimate that minims are smaller than a normal drop by 60%, and if this relation differs (40-60%), L/fl oz/dr would have to be larger as an offset (20-0%), allowing a 5% error (±1 minim). All this is based on analysis of the text and contextual knowledge. It was Frank Herbert's style to leave intentional blanks, giving us just enough clues to connect the dots, as I just did. So to be more specific, the deathstill produced 33 liters, 0 fl oz (0/32), 7 drachms (7/1024), and 3 minims (3/32,768).
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Re: Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)

Post by stilgarr »

This was a nice read thanks for making the effort, makes sense to me. Also your profile pictures looks really cool. Just wanted to say that.
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Re: Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)

Post by xcalibur »

stilgarr wrote: 21 Dec 2022 09:04 This was a nice read thanks for making the effort, makes sense to me. Also your profile pictures looks really cool. Just wanted to say that.
For sure, thanks. As part of my random readings, I delved into measurement systems and their pros/cons, and since I've long been a Dune fan, the two things came together and turned into this. I always like contributing original bits of knowledge when I can.

My avatar is cropped fanart depicting Maud'dib. It is as you said, the coolest depiction I've seen out there.
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Re: Fremen water measurement (literjons, drachms, etc)

Post by georgiedenbro »

You know I always assumed a literjon was yet another unit of measurement of some sort and never bothered to try to figure out what it meant. I realize now that it seems to simply be a container of volume 1L. Huh.
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