Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?


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dwarf ghola
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Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by dwarf ghola »

Hell i am new were and i been reading the serie Dune, now in the forth book a stop myself "why is the bene gesserit cound not acess full memoirs extcly?" Sorry for my bad ingles its not my first languague.
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by Freakzilla »

They can, but they would become possessed by their dominant, malignant male ancestor. This is why they wanted a male who could survive the poison.
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georgiedenbro
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by georgiedenbro »

Freakzilla wrote: 16 May 2022 12:30 They can, but they would become possessed by their dominant, malignant male ancestor. This is why they wanted a male who could survive the poison.
Next time I'm glancing through Dune I'll look for a quote on this. I'm not sure if the book says they choose not to, or they can't bear to. It's hard to get some of the Lynch movie lines out of my head (get out of my mind!)
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by Serkanner »

georgiedenbro wrote: 12 Jul 2022 14:51
Freakzilla wrote: 16 May 2022 12:30 They can, but they would become possessed by their dominant, malignant male ancestor. This is why they wanted a male who could survive the poison.
Next time I'm glancing through Dune I'll look for a quote on this. I'm not sure if the book says they choose not to, or they can't bear to. It's hard to get some of the Lynch movie lines out of my head (get out of my mind!)
Mohiam to Paul:
"The drug's dangerous," she said, "but it gives insight. When a Truthsayer's gifted by the drug, she can look many places in her memory -- in her body's
memory. We look down so many avenues of the past . . . but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no
Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where
we cannot -- into both feminine and masculine pasts."
"Your Kwisatz Haderach?"




During the ritual when Jessica drinks the water of life this is one of her inner conversations:

"That is the place where we cannot look, she thought. There is the place the Reverend Mothers are so reluctant to mention--the place where only a Kwisatz Haderach may look."
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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and wrote a Dune Novel."
georgiedenbro
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by georgiedenbro »

Thanks for the quotes, Serkanner. That's what I thought it said, but sometimes it's hard to remember whether I read the line or heard the line (in the film). It seems pretty clear that male OM isn't something the BG can just choose to look at, albeit with some danger. However if we choose to read the two quotes a bit non-literally, they could maybe imply that technically the BG could access their male ancestors, but it is so horrible and terrible for them that they never do it. In other words "can't" could in theory mean not safely, rather than it's totally impossible. But I always did read it as meaning it was totally impossible.

This would mean that (a) Alia is unique among female BG, and (b) that when BG go too far and get possessed it's either a female ancestor who possesses them, or else a male ancestor but one they didn't actually commune with in OM but who is down in the recesses of their mind. It could also be other pre-born in the same situation as Ghani and Leto II. For Alia to be unique IMO would have to do with her oracular powers, and maybe threfore her Atreides blood. Leto II was born as an oracle, but I assume this was only because he inherited Paul's memories. My assumption is that pre-born in history would have been born without the ability to ward off their OM (and therefore would be easily possessed) but wouldn't have had Alia's or Leto II's particular powers. So if my conclusions are right then the previously possessed BG still wouldn't have actively been able to accesss their male OM, but perhaps they could still be possessed by it regardless.
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by Serkanner »

georgiedenbro wrote: 13 Jul 2022 13:51 However if we choose to read the two quotes a bit non-literally, they could maybe imply that technically the BG could access their male ancestors, but it is so horrible and terrible for them that they never do it. In other words "can't" could in theory mean not safely, rather than it's totally impossible. But I always did read it as meaning it was totally impossible.
This has also been the way I have read it previously. Your question combined with the quotes makes me think they perhaps can't indeed means "could in theory not safely". Interesting question. If I have some spare time I will see if other quotes shed some more light on it.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
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Cpt. Aramsham
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by Cpt. Aramsham »

The end of the book offers strong support for this interpretation:
"Try your tricks on me, old witch," Paul said. "Where's your gom jabbar? Try looking into that place where you dare not look! You'll find me there staring out at you!"
There's also the fact that Jessica does look into that place, briefly:
"You speak of a place where you cannot enter? This place which the Reverend Mother cannot face, show it to me."
She shook her head, terrified by the very thought.
"Show it to me!" he commanded.
"No!"
But she could not escape him. Bludgeoned by the terrible force of him, she closed her eyes and focused inward — the-direction-that-is-dark.
Paul's consciousness flowed through and around her and into the darkness.
She glimpsed the place dimly before her mind blanked itself away from the terror. Without knowing why, her whole being trembled at what she had seen — a region where a wind blew and sparks glared, where rings of light expanded and contracted, where rows of tumescent white shapes flowed over and under and around the lights, driven by darkness and a wind out of nowhere.
"She glimpsed the place dimly before her mind blanked itself away from the terror": It sounds like the problem isn't that they don't have the ability, but that the experience is so mentally terrifying and painful that they cannot make themselves do it. (But of course, that works out to almost the same thing in practice. It's little help to say you could do something in theory, if you absolutely cannot will yourself to actually do it.)
georgiedenbro
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by georgiedenbro »

Cpt. Aramsham wrote: 14 Jul 2022 08:10 The end of the book offers strong support for this interpretation:
"Try your tricks on me, old witch," Paul said. "Where's your gom jabbar? Try looking into that place where you dare not look! You'll find me there staring out at you!"
Oh! That gets me thinking. I always interpreted this quote as being poetic hyperbole on Paul's part, his way of saying that he can go to the place where Mohiam can't. But there's a much cooler interpretation of that if we take him literally! What if Paul can also do the thing Alia can do, of appearing in someone else's OM? Instead of merely implying that Paul possesses the powers of the KH, the male BG, the quote would in fact imply that Paul is literally in Mohiam's head, just as Alia is, and if she looks into her OM she will actually see him there despite there being no genetic ancestry there. Mohiam can easily check to see if she sees Alia there since she's a female. But to check to see if Paul is there would be the terrifying thing.

In fact, this is now what I think it means. And I think this reading of it preps us better to interpret what's going on near the end of CH:D.
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xcalibur
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by xcalibur »

Freakzilla wrote: 16 May 2022 12:30 They can, but they would become possessed by their dominant, malignant male ancestor. This is why they wanted a male who could survive the poison.
That was the fate of Alia, I recall.
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Freakzilla
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Re: Why the bene gesserit cant acess full memoirs?

Post by Freakzilla »

xcalibur wrote: 14 Jul 2022 14:14
Freakzilla wrote: 16 May 2022 12:30 They can, but they would become possessed by their dominant, malignant male ancestor. This is why they wanted a male who could survive the poison.
That was the fate of Alia, I recall.
Yes, she didn't have the benefit of BG training to know to avoid the male other memories when she was awakened in Jessica's womb.
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