Tleilaxu and Bene Gesserit Team up in Dune 7?

[Godemperorjames]

When Scytale is taking one of his routine walks with Odrade during his confinement, he admits the Bene Gesserit do not need him because they have started the spice cycle on Chapterhouse. I think the Bene Gesserit would have lead the Tleilaxu against something in Dune 7.

What do you guys think?

[georgiedenbro]

The Bene Gesserit had already begun using ghola and axlotl tank technology, so in a sense the merger between BG and BT had already begun. Some of the strongest BG tenets would already have been discarded in favor of practical necessity to allow even that. From what CH:D tells us of Odrade's plan, it seems the BG finally learned from the Tyrant on the need for continual adaptation. The merger with the HM is one aspect of this, and I think you're right that the BT would come to merge with them as well. All of their little secrets they had over each other would appear to pale in comparison with the arsenal at the disposal of the enemy of many faces, and so keeping to ancient political lines going forward would likely be worthless.

In terms of how exactly they needed Scytale, I don't think the BG were so foolish as to think they had nothing to learn from him, especially given his serial memory going back to at least Muad'dib's time. I guess Duncan made it a non-issue in the end.

[Godemperorjames]

How do you think Ixians would have come into play? I feel like the God Emperor preserved for something more than No-rooms/ships.

[Freakzilla]

I think the Ixians were also a non-factor due to the advances in The Scattering. They couldn't even figure out how to make the HMs secret weapon work.

[Godemperorjames]

I think they would have created cyborgs or something like that!

[georgiedenbro]

I think they would have created cyborgs or something like that!

Cyborgs already existed.

[Godemperorjames]

True. I think the Ixian position was supposed to be a dialogue on where man begins and machine ends though. So I think Herbert would have provided some resolution.

[georgiedenbro]

True. I think the Ixian position was supposed to be a dialogue on where man begins and machine ends though. So I think Herbert would have provided some resolution.

I honestly don't think Ix mattered much to the story past GeoD.

[Godemperorjames]

I disagree. I think Herbert was fascinated by the boundaries of technology.

[Serkanner]

I disagree. I think Herbert was fascinated by the boundaries of technology.

Both are true. Herbert was fascinated by technology, and in HoD and Ch:D Ix didn't play an important part in the story any more.

[Freakzilla]

I disagree. I think Herbert was fascinated by the boundaries of technology.

Both are true. Herbert was fascinated by technology, and in HoD and Ch:D Ix didn't play an important part in the story any more.

I don't think HoD and CH:D mattered after GEoD, hehehe They just told us what happened to the Old Empire after humanity was set on Leto's Golden Path.

[georgiedenbro]

I disagree. I think Herbert was fascinated by the boundaries of technology.

I don't think HoD and CH:D mattered after GEoD, hehehe They just told us what happened to the Old Empire after humanity was set on Leto's Golden Path.

You know, I've wondered about that a little. The problem is that Leto II didn't peer into the future beyond observing that humanity still existed, but we don't know either how far into the future he looked, and also the reason humanity still existed. Since he forbade himself examining the particulars of the future to avoid locking humanity in a prescient trap, he also denied himself access to information about what would come down the road. It was something like "I've freed you, now you're on your own." But that was then, given what he knew. FH seems clear enough on the point that nothing is ever certain, and nothing stays the same forever. Even if Leto II saved humanity 'forever', even that doesn't last forever. Given that Teg could see no-ships it perhaps follows that a prescient being could exist that could see no-people (i.e. people with the Siona gene). This would bring the old problem back again, and indeed it does seem to be the case that M&D can see no-people. The fact of humanity being spread out 'to infinity' was the other defence against extinction, and yet I wonder whether even this was a guarantee any more. The problem is Leto II didn't look far enough into the future to tell whether physical distance and being spread out could be overcome by technology of some kind. It definitely seems like the exponential branching out of humanity would make it impossible to track everyone down...but do we really know that? Here is one thing we do know: every single BG scattering group that was sent out never returned and was never heard from again. I get a strong sense from the epilogue of CH:D that M&D had intercepted everyone from Odrade's scattering. Anyone, apparently, with navigational information in their ship's computer was able to be tracked and captured no matter where they went, which means no one in the universe was necessarily safe.

Unless I'm mistaken I think Duncan was the first person to ever dump the ship's memory core to obscure their destination from M&D, which would mean there was a new defence against being tracked. And of course the pattern would continue, where a new solution to that defence would eventually be found, a new defence against that, etc etc. It's this pattern of adaptation that seemed to be the one constant of the series, but I'm not quite sure there was ever such a thing as a 'forever' guarantee of safety for the species. At the very least, Leto II didn't seem to look into the details of the future enough to know for sure.

One other small point which I've never thought about but just occurred to me. Paul never saw Leto II in his visions, and likewise never saw the futures involving him. We assume this was because Leto II was an oracle. It follows from this that if there was ever to be another great oracle Leto II wouldn't have seen him/her either, and likewise wouldn't see the future possibilities that would result from their actions. Leto's own insertion of the Siona gene all but made it impossible for him, in particular, to see certain people, and if an oracle with the Siona gene were to come along Leto even more so wouldn't be able to foresee such a person. The argument was that no oracle as such could exist since people were shielded with the gene, but if someone like Teg came along and was an oracle then that theory might be out the window, and a new prescient problem might emerge just like it had before.

[Freakzilla]

Even though Leto couldn't see people with the Siona Gene he could still see their effects, enough to know they were there. By Leto's own admission his prescience was only local, but in an infinite universe local is bigger than you can imagine. Even if a prescient did come along that could see no-people I imagine there would still be a limit and The Scattering has had a long head start. There's also the possibility of a force that could counter such a prescient in an infinite universe. I guess I just like to have faith in Leto. If not, the whole story falls apart. We don't even really know that the extinction that he envisioned would really have happened, we have to take his word for it.

History is a constant race between invention and catastrophe. Education helps but it's never enough. You also must run.

[georgiedenbro]

Even though Leto couldn't see people with the Siona Gene he could still see their effects, enough to know they were there. By Leto's own admission his prescience was only local, but in an infinite universe local is bigger than you can imagine. Even if a prescient did come along that could see no-people I imagine there would still be a limit and The Scattering has had a long head start. There's also the possibility of a force that could counter such a prescient in an infinite universe. I guess I just like to have faith in Leto. If not, the whole story falls apart. We don't even really know that the extinction that he envisioned would really have happened, we have to take his word for it.

History is a constant race between invention and catastrophe. Education helps but it's never enough. You also must run.

I agree. I do have faith in him (maybe not as much as you), but more so his teachings than his specific acts. Granted, his acts were his method of teaching, but I guess I mean I can be pretty certain I agree with his intentions even while not being quite as certain about the effects of his actions. I feel more or less the same way about Paul, mind you.

[Serkanner]

I think the most important part of the Scattering is "time". Humanity is scattering so rapidly that even an prescient being doesn't have enough time to see/predict the future well enough to see it all. To me that is what saves humanity from entities like Leto.

[georgiedenbro]

I think the most important part of the Scattering is "time". Humanity is scattering so rapidly that even an prescient being doesn't have enough time to see/predict the future well enough to see it all. To me that is what saves humanity from entities like Leto.

Right, but he was just one man. What about a machine with oracular powers? Or if this is impossible, what about an army of oracles created as gholas? Can the spreading not eventually be exceeded by the hunters if they, too, multiply exponentially? I'm reminded of the Mantrid drones, for any Lexx fans here.

My general impression by book 6 is that FH was showing us a sort of fractal diagram, where after seeing a zoomed in pattern, time moves forward and we zoom out to see a larger pattern, then a larger one, to infinity. For each 'level' of the pattern for which a solution is found the difficulty rises and a more advanced solution is required, and it never ends. I know in one sense the narrative is meant to show us that Leto 'saved' humanity forever, but at the same time I sort of think this meant he gave humanity the chance to be saved forever, but there was still work to be done. When he tells us in GeoD that he's peered into the future enough to see mankind's survival, I'm not sure necessarily if he meant that it was saved in every possible future, or whether he made sure that there were at least some possible futures in which it survived. Recall that he refused to lock humanity into a prescient trap, so there wasn't just one future he had chosen and knew that would be the one. From what he told Siona, it seems that when he had previously looked forward there were no futures at all in which humanity survived other than precisely one - that of the Golden Path. Converting no chance of survival into several possibilities for survival would still definitely be a complete win for him and get humanity past that one guaranteed hurdle. I'm just not sure it meant there would never be any more hurdles to threaten all of humanity. The protagonists in the Sisterhood in books 5 and 6 seem convinced that it was forever...but I'm not necessarily inclined to take their word for it as an absolute. They barely grasped what Leto's real plan was even by HoD, so I take what they say with a grain of salt.

[Serkanner]

I think the most important part of the Scattering is "time". Humanity is scattering so rapidly that even an prescient being doesn't have enough time to see/predict the future well enough to see it all. To me that is what saves humanity from entities like Leto.

Right, but he was just one man. What about a machine with oracular powers? Or if this is impossible, what about an army of oracles created as gholas? Can the spreading not eventually be exceeded by the hunters if they, too, multiply exponentially? I'm reminded of the Mantrid drones, for any Lexx fans here.

Good point(s). Didn't think of that possibility.