Fremen Numbers
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- Sudrak al-Salik
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Fremen Numbers
Hi All.
I would ask a question for those who know more than me about the fremen numbers.
By my Extracts Data I found these numbers: «shuc [one], ishcai [two], qimsa [three], chuascu [four], picha [five], suchta [six]...(Children of Dune - chapter 16).
There are others...?
Thanks...
I would ask a question for those who know more than me about the fremen numbers.
By my Extracts Data I found these numbers: «shuc [one], ishcai [two], qimsa [three], chuascu [four], picha [five], suchta [six]...(Children of Dune - chapter 16).
There are others...?
Thanks...
"Madness in method, that's genius"
- SandChigger
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Hadn't gotten as far as numbers yet, unfortunately. They don't look like Arabic derivatives (other than qimsa). Herbert evidently used Serbian and Romany for Chakobsa, so maybe that's where they come from?"You know how he counts?" Stilgar had asked her. "I heard him counting coins as he paid his guide. It's very strange to my Fremen ears, and that's a terrible thing. He counts 'shuc, ishcai, qimsa, chuascu, picha, sucta, and so on. I've not heard counting like that since the old days in the desert."
Just found this googling "Romany numbers"...
(Note also that it appears that "RomanyJib" is how you say Romany in Romany; as in Bhotani Jib.)Yek, Dui, trini, shtar, pansh, shuk. ( some say show but shuk ora means sixpence) eft, oct, enya, desh.
(Could this be evidence of the Jacurutu dialect? )
- Demerzel
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Re: Fremen Numbers
'Jib' means 'tongue' in some Indian dialects.
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- Rymoah
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Googling for "ishcai" I have found a reference in the Webster Online Dictionary where it says that in Ecuadorian Quechua the term means "two". Looking further in Google for "ishcai quechua" I've found this interesting page...
RymoahWikitravel wrote:
Numbers
in Ecuadorian Quichua
1
(shuc)
2
(ishcai)
3
(quimsa)
4
(chuscu)
5
(pichca)
6
(sucta)
7
(canchis)
8
(pusac)
9
(iscun)
10
(chunca)
11
(chunca shuc)
12
(chunca ishcai)
13
(chunca quimsa)
14
(chunca chuscu)
15
(chunca pichca)
16
(chunca sucta)
17
(chunca canchis)
18
(chunca pusac)
19
('ishcai iscun)
20
(ishcai chunca)
...
- Hunchback Jack
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Nice work!
I guess that means that Fremen have no concept of zero?
HBJ
I guess that means that Fremen have no concept of zero?
HBJ
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- Iain Banks
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- Iain Banks
- Freakzilla
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Didn't Arabs invent zero? Maybe "invent" is the wrong word.
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- SandChigger
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Quechua?! WTF?!
But hey, maybe I was right about the Jacurutu dialect: the Jacurutu is a river in South America, where the Inca hung out, right?
But hey, maybe I was right about the Jacurutu dialect: the Jacurutu is a river in South America, where the Inca hung out, right?
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Re: Fremen Numbers
It was Indian mathematicians who first asserted that zero was in fact a number and treated it as such in their calculations (other cultures knew about zero, but argued whether it was a number and had use beyond place holding or used it in obscure calculations). Indian mathematicians also gifted to us our decimal-based notation.Freakzilla wrote:Didn't Arabs invent zero? Maybe "invent" is the wrong word.
- SadisticCynic
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Re: Fremen Numbers
That seems to happen fairly often e.g irrational numbers, imaginary numbers etc.Slugger wrote:It was Indian mathematicians who first asserted that zero was in fact a number and treated it as such in their calculations (other cultures knew about zero, but argued whether it was a number and had use beyond place holding or used it in obscure calculations). Indian mathematicians also gifted to us our decimal-based notation.Freakzilla wrote:Didn't Arabs invent zero? Maybe "invent" is the wrong word.
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- Freakzilla
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Re: Fremen Numbers
What does?SadisticCynic wrote:That seems to happen fairly often e.g irrational numbers, imaginary numbers etc.Slugger wrote:It was Indian mathematicians who first asserted that zero was in fact a number and treated it as such in their calculations (other cultures knew about zero, but argued whether it was a number and had use beyond place holding or used it in obscure calculations). Indian mathematicians also gifted to us our decimal-based notation.Freakzilla wrote:Didn't Arabs invent zero? Maybe "invent" is the wrong word.
And if you want to get technical, didn't the Mayans have a symbol for zero before the Hindu?
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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- SadisticCynic
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Re: Fremen Numbers
I meant the bit I put in bold. I don't know much about the history of zero.Freakzilla wrote:What does?SadisticCynic wrote:That seems to happen fairly often e.g irrational numbers, imaginary numbers etc.Slugger wrote:It was Indian mathematicians who first asserted that zero was in fact a number and treated it as such in their calculations (other cultures knew about zero, but argued whether it was a number and had use beyond place holding or used it in obscure calculations). Indian mathematicians also gifted to us our decimal-based notation.Freakzilla wrote:Didn't Arabs invent zero? Maybe "invent" is the wrong word.
And if you want to get technical, didn't the Mayans have a symbol for zero before the Hindu?
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Fremen Numbers
@SadisticCynic:
Yeah, it seems that the introduction of any type of number beyond the natural numbers (i.e., the counting numbers, 1, 2, 3, 4,...etc) has been met with arguments about how to define it. Heck, even today mathematicians still argue over this stuff (e.g. "Should zero be included as a natural number?").
I can't really speak about the Mayan's and their math, but I believe reading somewhere that they did in fact have a symbol for zero. If you go by chronological order, then the Mayans may predate the Hindu in the use of a zero-symbol, but for use in mathematical functions the Indians were the first to employ the zero-number (because of how they wrote numbers, i.e. their decimal notation).
Yeah, it seems that the introduction of any type of number beyond the natural numbers (i.e., the counting numbers, 1, 2, 3, 4,...etc) has been met with arguments about how to define it. Heck, even today mathematicians still argue over this stuff (e.g. "Should zero be included as a natural number?").
Well, there's a difference between having a symbol representing the concept of zero (i.e. a null set) and having a "zero" in the sense that you can perform mathematical operations with. The Romans and Greeks knew about the concept of "zero" and had a symbol for it, and I believe the Greeks used it as a placeholder. Roman mathematics didn't really require the concept of a zero-number, as mathematical functions weren't performed the same way with their Numerals (i.e. 2-2 = 0, but our method of calculating the difference is different than the method the Romans employed).Freakzilla wrote:What does?SadisticCynic wrote:That seems to happen fairly often e.g irrational numbers, imaginary numbers etc.Slugger wrote:It was Indian mathematicians who first asserted that zero was in fact a number and treated it as such in their calculations (other cultures knew about zero, but argued whether it was a number and had use beyond place holding or used it in obscure calculations). Indian mathematicians also gifted to us our decimal-based notation.Freakzilla wrote:Didn't Arabs invent zero? Maybe "invent" is the wrong word.
And if you want to get technical, didn't the Mayans have a symbol for zero before the Hindu?
I can't really speak about the Mayan's and their math, but I believe reading somewhere that they did in fact have a symbol for zero. If you go by chronological order, then the Mayans may predate the Hindu in the use of a zero-symbol, but for use in mathematical functions the Indians were the first to employ the zero-number (because of how they wrote numbers, i.e. their decimal notation).
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Not to get off-topic, but if you're interested Freak:
http://turner.faculty.swau.edu/mathemat ... ary/roman/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That succinctly explains how to perform basic arithmetic with Roman Numerals. You don't really "need" a zero.
http://turner.faculty.swau.edu/mathemat ... ary/roman/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That succinctly explains how to perform basic arithmetic with Roman Numerals. You don't really "need" a zero.
- SadisticCynic
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Re: Fremen Numbers
The empty set? Now we're getting into really fun maths.Slugger wrote:(i.e. a null set)
In the modern definition of naturals I think we need to start from zero, if we want to build them in a straightforward fashion. But it is certainly an interesting question, and outside set theory all my maths classes have used the naturals as starting from 1.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Fremen Numbers
I had the same older prof for a couple of math courses and he referred to the empty set as the null set. I should be more precise in my terminology. I wanted to take a course in discrete math but it unfortunately wouldn't fit into my schedule.SadisticCynic wrote:The empty set? Now we're getting into really fun maths.Slugger wrote:(i.e. a null set)
I'm a bit ambivalent on this subject. It makes sense to include zero in the natural numbers, but when counting objects you generally don't start at 0.SadisticCynic wrote:In the modern definition of naturals I think we need to start from zero, if we want to build them in a straightforward fashion. But it is certainly an interesting question, and outside set theory all my maths classes have used the naturals as starting from 1.
- Rymoah
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Re: Fremen Numbers
As far as I know, this matter is heavily application-dependent. The construction of natural numbers works both if you start from 0 or 1. It is sufficient to change the first Peano's axiom ("It exists a natural number, 0"; "It exists a natural number, 1"), then the recursive building with the successor function works in the same way. So, it depends upon which kind of algebraic structure you want to give to the natural numbers. For example, if you need a multiplicative monoid, starting from 1 is sufficient; if you need an additive group, the 0 is necessary.Slugger wrote:
...
I'm a bit ambivalent on this subject. It makes sense to include zero in the natural numbers, but when counting objects you generally don't start at 0.SadisticCynic wrote:In the modern definition of naturals I think we need to start from zero, if we want to build them in a straightforward fashion. But it is certainly an interesting question, and outside set theory all my maths classes have used the naturals as starting from 1.
As for Hunchback's original question "I guess that means that Fremen have no concept of zero", I agree with Slugger... In the context of the quote reported by SandChigger, the aim was clearly typical counting, and normally you start from 1 (unless you are an engineer or a computer scientist! ) Maybe Palimbasha knew the answer ^___^
Rymoah
- Freakzilla
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Having zero liters of water would be a problem.
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- SadisticCynic
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Re: Fremen Numbers
Hmmm, you're right of course. I was thinking of the set theoretic definition which identifies the empty set with the number zero. I suppose one could start with 1 in this way as well, but it might make the extensions to other number systems more cumbersome.As far as I know, this matter is heavily application-dependent. The construction of natural numbers works both if you start from 0 or 1. It is sufficient to change the first Peano's axiom ("It exists a natural number, 0"; "It exists a natural number, 1"), then the recursive building with the successor function works in the same way. So, it depends upon which kind of algebraic structure you want to give to the natural numbers. For example, if you need a multiplicative monoid, starting from 1 is sufficient; if you need an additive group, the 0 is necessary.
(I didn't know what a monoid was, so you've given me some extra reading to do. Thanks! )
I'm not sure there's anything wrong with the terminology; I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing. I have the same problems with schedules. Want to take more Pure Maths but have no choices available.Slugger wrote:I had the same older prof for a couple of math courses and he referred to the empty set as the null set. I should be more precise in my terminology. I wanted to take a course in discrete math but it unfortunately wouldn't fit into my schedule.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity