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    Chapter 14

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    Chapter 14

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Feb 2008 17:47

    This was Muad'Dib's achievement: He saw the subliminal reservoir of each
    individual as an unconscious bank of memories going back to the primal cell of
    our common genesis. Each of us, he said, can measure out his distance from that
    common origin. Seeing this and telling of it, he made the audacious leap of
    decision. Muad'Dib set himself the task of integrating genetic memory into
    ongoing evaluation. Thus did he break through Time's veils, making a single
    thing of the future and the past. That was Muad'Dib's creation embodied in his
    son and his daughter.

    -Testament of Arrakis by Harq al-Ada

    Farad'n and Tyekanik are strolling through Shaddam's gardens and Tyek tells the prince that he's brought an interpreter of dreams to see him. The Preacher enters and listens while Farad'n describes his dream but refuses to reveal his interpretation. Farad'n is pissed and Tyek reveals that the interpreter is from Dune and he promised him Duncan Idaho if Tyek would let him meet the prince and hear of his dream. As advice The Preacher tells Farad'd that he doesn't have any idea of what the society he'd like to create is like. Also, his strategy does not break down to the most basic elements. He lacks the training his character needs to evolve. Farad'n wished to keep him there but Tyek says they had to promise the Guild that the Preacher would be returned to Dune. The Preacher promises Duncan Idaho to House Corrio.
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 28 Oct 2011 15:14

    The Preacher held his masked face rigidly confronting Farad'n."Governments may rise and fall for reasons which appear insignificant, Prince. What small events! An argument between two women...which way the wind blows on a certain day...a sneeze, a cough, the length of a garment or the chance collision of a fleck of sand and a courtier's eye. It is not always the majestic concerns of Imperial ministers which dictate the course of history, nor is it necessarily the pontifications of priests which move the hands of God."

    I used this excerpt from CoD in one of my research papers about the creation of history as a discipline. History, as many other subjects in the social sciences and humanities, has been under pressure to shed it's pretensions of being able to be objective in it's development. This goes much deeper than the common saying:"History is written by the victorious". It signals an epistemological crisis that has transformed the manners in which we approach knowledge. Frank Herbert, in just one paragraph, pointed out the shortcomings of what is known as "Monumental History" (not sure if this concept signifies the same thing as it does in spanish and french, i think M. Foucault coined the term: Its a type of historical creation that only concerns itself with monumental events, usually wars and conflicts of large scale, while ignoring the day to day intricacies of the human experience).

    Constructing history from the bottom up gives us a more comprehensive view of the multifaceted nature of the sociocultural processes that shape our lives, and by being aware of this a leader might form a more efficient (if not just) society. I believe that, partly, this is what The Preacher wants Farad'n to understand. Does this make any sense? Maybe I'm reaching a tad too much. Anyhow, the scope of F. Herbert's observations never ceases to amaze me.
    But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
    -Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

    Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
    -Leto II
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Oct 2011 15:21

    Makes sense to me.

    :crazy: :P
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 28 Oct 2011 16:28

    Good...
    I guess that means i can postpone the trip to the loony bin. :dance:
    But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
    -Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

    Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
    -Leto II
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Serkanner » 28 Oct 2011 16:44

    Nietzsche's mustache wrote:Good...
    I guess that means i can postpone the trip to the loony bin. :dance:


    Postpone ... not cancel. :wink:
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 28 Oct 2011 19:13

    Serkanner wrote:
    Nietzsche's mustache wrote:Good...
    I guess that means i can postpone the trip to the loony bin. :dance:


    Postpone ... not cancel. :wink:


    Admittedly so...

    Losing one's marbles is an unavoidable risk when exploring the nature of consciousness in the face of an indifferent universe. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

    Perhaps i should have exercised more restraint during my early twenties...Hallucinogens are not to be taken lightly. :oops:
    But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
    -Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

    Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Oct 2011 08:42

    If not while you're young, when?
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 31 Oct 2011 17:08

    They say youth is wasted on the young... But you are right. It is my opinion that youth is SUPPOSED to be wasted. That's part of the intrinsic beauty of being young! Hell, we all know how easily the ability to be spontaneously happy is lost in adulthood. Responsibilities, obligations, work, debts, the awareness of how we accumulate unfulfilled expectations... Fuck, I just turned 30 and sometimes I feel like I'm 60. :character-oldtimer:
    But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
    -Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

    Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Mandy » 30 Dec 2011 15:08

    For the first time, I actually paid attention to Farad'n's dream. I read the words before, obviously, but never paid them any mind. I guess it just dawned on me this time to interpret the dream myself! I love how each reading brings out things I hadn't noticed before.

    Water flowing upward in the well - worlds which were dancing atoms - a snake transforms into a sandworm and explodes in a cloud of dust

    So, anyone else think Farad'n dreams of the Golden Path, in a way? It's hard to talk about the dream's implications without posting spoilers... lol I just wanted to share an AHA!
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Dec 2011 15:12

    :clap: :D
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby SadisticCynic » 30 Dec 2011 15:54

    Wait, what? Thanks Mandy, I'll look out for that on my next reread (whenever that is). :D
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Mandy » 30 Dec 2011 20:19

    It forced me to realize that Farad'n was a product of the BG breeding program, which had never crossed my mind before.
    As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 17 Jan 2012 03:49

    Mandy wrote:For the first time, I actually paid attention to Farad'n's dream. I read the words before, obviously, but never paid them any mind. I guess it just dawned on me this time to interpret the dream myself! I love how each reading brings out things I hadn't noticed before.

    Water flowing upward in the well - worlds which were dancing atoms - a snake transforms into a sandworm and explodes in a cloud of dust

    So, anyone else think Farad'n dreams of the Golden Path, in a way? It's hard to talk about the dream's implications without posting spoilers... lol I just wanted to share an AHA!

    :idea: :D
    This makes sense. IIRC, I believe The Preacher tells Farad'n that his dream tells him that events are leading to their logical conclusion and that he must hasten his return to Dune.

    I won't get into specifics to avoid spoilers, but the more I think about the images in his dream the more it feels like a rough symbolic representation of the events to come.

    Thanks, Mandy!
    But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
    -Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

    Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2012 10:58

    No revisions, clean.

    I'd like to point out that the epigraph says that Paul's prescience was a function of his genetic memory and that to him there was no seperation between past and future, a point I've argued many times.
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby georgiedenbro » 09 Oct 2014 15:18

    Children of Dune wrote:"Ambitions tend to remain undisturbed by realities," The Preacher said. "I
    dare such words because you stand at a crossroad. You could become admirable.
    But now you are surrounded by those who do not seek moral justifications, by
    advisers who are strategy oriented.
    You are young and strong and tough, but you
    lack a certain advanced training by which your character might evolve. This is
    sad because you have weaknesses whose dimensions I have described."


    This really marks a new level of standard to apply to homo sapiens. Historically, there were just 'people'. The BG began to apply a test to separate animals from humans, a means of identifying who was capable of making choices and having the will to enforce them, and who was pulled by instinct and not in full control. But now we have a third standard, which even separates the humans: Who is a moral, admirable human, and who isn't? The subtle implication of this progression, which takes 23,000 years to reach, is that a person cannot hope to be truly admirable or moral unless they have already achieved being a human by BG standards. If you don't have the discipline and will to enforce your own moral choices then you will be pulled by instinct and any belief you may have in morals will be undermined over time by your worse inclinations. The worst case scenario for a moral non-human would be a critical moment or juncture, where a moral choice must be made and the the non-human would be incapable of making the moral choice due to his own instinct winning out. He would withdraw his hand from the box, as it were, where withdrawing it means condemning others to death or suffering, or making the world a worse place.

    Freakzilla wrote:I'd like to point out that the epigraph says that Paul's prescience was a function of his genetic memory and that to him there was no seperation between past and future, a point I've argued many times.


    I definitely see that in the epigraph just as you do. It definitely makes it sound like the integration of racial memory with living in the present allows the future to be added to the mix in order to make the three as one. But I'd like to add that this isn't equivalent to the argument you've made on occasion, that OM + mentat = prescience (or did I get this wrong?). I think that prescience comes all on its own to some, like to Navigators and to Mohiam, for instance, and that OM can also be accessed on its own, like RM's do. Prescience appears really to come from 'out there', almost like magic; not magic, but from data and sources we cannot fathom, somehow to do with our real relationship to our environment and the universe we don't understand yet.

    I don't think that prescience can be the result of perfect mentat prediction using current data plus OM data. Too many passages in the series outright contradict this, especially the ones that specify that prescience defies normal logic and isn't linear. But what the epigraph shows is that when the individual powers of seeing the past, seeing the future, and making calculations in the present are all brought to bear together one gets something that is greater than the sum of the three: the KH, whose prescience isn't just 'better' than that of a Navigator, but of a completely different type and is all-encompassing; and whose OM isn't just memories any more, but is 'reality', no different from the future or present. That OM is the missing ingredient for a mentat-prescient to gain real understanding is evident from the epigraph, but I don't think it says that prescience itself comes from any other source than itself. It is the 'higher order understanding' of Paul's that came from reaching his OM, which goes far beyond mere prescience; Paul had his prescience already. It is this higher order understanding (becoming really integrated with the universal ecosystem, if you will) that the BG didn't foresee and that no one for a while understood.

    Recall that after waking up from taking the WoL, Paul answers the question of whether he's seen the future by saying "I've seen the now." This is to say that he now understood the real nature of how things relate, and that the future is but one constituent of that and not of any more importance than the others.

    My understanding of the equation would read as: OM + prescience + mentat = KH. None of these components, I think, can be broken down into simpler elements, each one is basic.
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    Re: Chapter 14

    Postby georgiedenbro » 09 Oct 2014 15:29

    Nietzsche's mustache wrote:I used this excerpt from CoD in one of my research papers about the creation of history as a discipline. History, as many other subjects in the social sciences and humanities, has been under pressure to shed it's pretensions of being able to be objective in it's development. This goes much deeper than the common saying:"History is written by the victorious". It signals an epistemological crisis that has transformed the manners in which we approach knowledge. Frank Herbert, in just one paragraph, pointed out the shortcomings of what is known as "Monumental History" (not sure if this concept signifies the same thing as it does in spanish and french, i think M. Foucault coined the term: Its a type of historical creation that only concerns itself with monumental events, usually wars and conflicts of large scale, while ignoring the day to day intricacies of the human experience).


    For what it's worth, Nietzsche coined this term far earlier, in an essay he wrote in 1874 which you can find here:

    https://records.viu.ca/~Johnstoi/nietzsche/history.htm

    To be honest I don't trust this translation, I prefer Kaufmann or Hollingdale, but hey it's free.

    The English translation of what Nietzsche wrote translates exactly to "Monumental History" and it refers to the use of history to worship 'monuments' of the past, meaning wars, important people, great epochs, changes, discoveries, etc. Taking big, enticing facts about history and getting excited about them. In Nietzsche's case he was making a statement about the psychological effects of thinking of history in these terms; he wasn't at all discussing academic methodology. And yet the two do eventually meet, and Nietzsche's term remained in use after that for this type of thing.
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