Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

The concept of progress acts as a protective mechanism to shield us from the
terrors of the future.
-from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen kills his one hundredth slave gladiator in the arena with Count and Lady Fenring in attendance. Before the games the Baron has a talk with the Count. The emperor doesn't like how the Sardaukar have been ordered off Arrakis but the Baron was affraid the emperor's hand in helping him might be exposed. The emperor wants to look at the Baron's books too. Fenring hints that the Emperor will charge him with crimes against the Imperium if he should think of betraying the Baron. The Baron secretly hopes he will, this is exactly what the Houses of the Landsraad fear, the Sardaukar picking them off one by one. They would rally around the Baron and he could be emperor in his lifetime.

Feyd and Hawat have planned a show for the games, usually the slave gladiators are drugged but this one won't be. However, his psyche has been implanted with the word "scum" to momentarily imobilize his muscles. Also, Feyd has switched which of his knifes traditionally holds the poison, even Hawat doesn't know about that. The crowd and those who are knowledgeable about such things realize the slave isn't drugged when he comes out. Feyd recognizes him as one of the Duke's fighting men taken from Arrakis. He puts up a good fight but Feyd's secretly poisoned wrong knife saves him, before the poison fully takes effect, the slave falls on his own knife. The crowd wants Feyd to cut off his head but he refuses and orders the man burried intact with his knife in his hand. The crowd goes wild and the Baron orders a fete then goes off to kill the slavemaster for this treachery. The Count and Lady Fenring notice this, she plans to seduce Feyd to preserve his bloodline, she also plans to implant words in his psyche to make him more easily controled. The Count thinks it's a shame they couldn't have saved Paul, Margot says the Bene Gesserit have a saying, don't count a man dead until you see his body, even then you can make a mistake.

I'm wondering - at a time the Count and the lady Margot are discussing the blood line and he says "yes, and I can see now why we must have that bloodline" and later "the things we do in the name of humanity". What I'm wondering is; is the Count controlled by the Bene Gesserit? I never gave this much thought but it would make some sense - I'm thinking of the end of the book (I'll not say more so I wont spoil for first time readers)

I always interpreted the Count's "The things we do for humanity" statement as him letting someone else have his wife but you might be onto something there.

SadisticCynic wrote:I always interpreted the Count's "The things we do for humanity" statement as him letting someone else have his wife but you might be onto something there.

I just don't get what he would need that bloodline for. He doesn't have any breeding program himself, he was - however - a part of that of the Bene Gesserit.

nampigai wrote:What I'm wondering is; is the Count controlled by the Bene Gesserit?

Who isn't?

Maybe "used" is a better choice of a word than "controlled".

There are so many parts of this chapter that I enjoy:

-First look at the Fenring's; I find Hasmir's manner of speaking annoying (in a good way). All those "uuuhhhmm"s and "aahhh"s piss me off because it reads like I am actually in the room hearing him talk slowly with these devious pauses.

-This chapter really solidifies the Harkonnen nobility's penchant for cruelty and sadistic nature. The fact that a 17 year old boy is about to kill his 100th "gladiator"--all of which to this point have clearly been drugged for easy slaughter--is enough to make one cringe.

-The way the fight is goes down along with Feyd's trecherous switch of poisonous blades makes you appreciate Feyd's prowess and at the same time helps to sets up the finale of the story almost perfectly. You really want Feyd to take it in the chin following his victory.

If I am not mistaken, is not Fenring a eunuch? If so that helps to explain his fealty to the Bene Gesserit, and the ease with which he openly accepts cuckolding.

Wow, we got way off-topic on that one, mostly my fault.

nampigai wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:I always interpreted the Count's "The things we do for humanity" statement as him letting someone else have his wife but you might be onto something there.

I just don't get what he would need that bloodline for. He doesn't have any breeding program himself, he was - however - a part of that of the Bene Gesserit.

After reading this chapter again I'm certain that Fenring in league with the Bene Gesserit. He and Margot are certainly working as a team towards the same goals.

JimmytheT wrote:If I am not mistaken, is not Fenring a eunuch? If so that helps to explain his fealty to the Bene Gesserit, and the ease with which he openly accepts cuckolding.

Yes, this is mentioned in the epigraph of a previous chater.

Fenring is certainly in league with the bene gesserit

what really got me is that the Sardaukar know damn well about the fremen after their fight alongside the baron and no matter his dismissal of them I cant believe the emperor was so under informed years later as he walks into meeting Muad'Dib

of nearly equal interest is that he and the wife saw such obvious signs of hawat on the spectacle

a frankism to leave the substance of that up to the reader

distrans wrote:Fenring is certainly in league with the bene gesserit

what really got me is that the Sardaukar know damn well about the fremen after their fight alongside the baron and no matter his dismissal of them I cant believe the emperor was so under informed years later as he walks into meeting Muad'Dib

The Sardauker are the elite military force untill they meet the Fremen. They have done their job with heavier losses than expected. So, it is completely undrstandable the Emperor is NOT informed adequately about this opponent which rivals the Sardauker's abilities. They don't report this to the Emperor in order not lose face. It was a short, fast operation against the Atreides and not the Fremen they won, end of story ... they hope.

"why is the emperor so interested in exterminating the fremen? the baron asked

"it is the sardaurkar who wish it, not the emperor. they need practice in killing... and hate to see a task left undone"

then at the very least the count is in conspiricy with the sardaukar to apply pressure to the baron unbeknownst to the emperor AND the bene gesserit have forknowledge as to the ability of the fremen which again the emperor is being excluded from knowing...

distrans wrote:"why is the emperor so interested in exterminating the fremen? the baron asked

"it is the sardaurkar who wish it, not the emperor. they need practice in killing... and hate to see a task left undone"

then at the very least the count is in conspiricy with the sardaukar to apply pressure to the baron unbeknownst to the emperor AND the bene gesserit have forknowledge as to the ability of the fremen which again the emperor is being excluded from knowing...

Again. Only the Sardauker know of the Fremen abilities. THAT is why they want to exterminate them. Both Fenring and the Bene Gesserit do NOT know about their abilities. At least your quote doesnt support it.

if only the sardaukar know then Fenring wouldn't be passing on their wishes
and the way conversation with his wife unfolds it hard to believe that Fenring was concealing anything from bene gesserit

the reasonable continuity I find is in the emperors guard advising him to retreat to space the second after the shield wall is blown much later in the story

but again I don't believe that an emperor aware of the fremens ability would have touched down on the planet without adequate guard in light of what his sardaukar had learned years earlier...

The Emperor might notice an unusual ability among the Fremen but from his vantage point he has basically unlimited reserves. Even if he faces strong opposition he just calls in more forces. That's his mindset, and we know that he had lost touch with the on-the-ground realities of his Empire. His concept of power became disconnected with where that power really came from. It's no surprise that he would even be aware of the losses on Arrakis and be unconcerned. It's not directly relevant to the story either way whether he knew and didn't care, or didn't know.

Serk, the one thing I would suggest about Fenring's conversation with the Baron is that when the Baron was suggesting turning Arrakis into another prison planet Fenring's reaction suggests he knows all too well that the Fremen could become the next Sardaukar force. So he either knows their capabilities, or else knows what they could be under the right conditions. He knows enough either way to see the threat in the Baron's idle suggestion. I would find it hard to believe, though, that the BG don't know about the Fremen. Their Missionaria would no doubt keep tabs on various people that have been inculcated with BG beliefs, and also since the original BG plan was to put Paulette/Feyd's child on the throne we can probably assume they meant for the Fremen to be the base of military power behind the throne, situated on Arrakis. The KH would need to have spice production under his control for all of this to work, so I doubt the coup would be able to function in any other world than Arrakis as the Guild would simply refuse to take them anywhere. My conclusion is therefore that the BG were well-aware of the situation among the Fremen and that actually they were banking on using them to their full advantage. The Baron was on his way to blundering into this situation as well; he didn't know about the capabilities of the Fremen but he did intend to use the native inhabitants as Feyd's power base.

I need to think this over some more. I am not (yet) convinced.

has is already been concluded that the bene gesserit were responsible for the emperors decision to evict the harkonnens and call in the atreides?

distrans wrote:has is already been concluded that the bene gesserit were responsible for the emperors decision to evict the harkonnens and call in the atreides?

That's my hypothesis (which you can find in The Grand Plan thread). Overtly the decision was between the Emperor, the Harkonnens, with the Guild in on it, but based on how things usually go I suspect the BG were manipulating this to their advantage.

Btw, here's the passage I was referencing above:

"A certain amount of killing has always been an arm of business," the Baron said, "but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Someone must be left to work the spice."
The Count emitted a short, barking laugh. "You think you can harness the Fremen?"
"There never were enough of them for that," the Baron said. "But the killing has made the rest of my population uneasy. It's reaching the point where I'm considering another solution to the Arrakeen problem, my dear Fenring. And I must confess the Emperor deserves credit for the inspiration."
"Ah-h-h?"
"You see, Count, I have the Emperor's prison planet, Salusa Secundus, to inspire me."
The Count stared at him with glittering intensity. "What possible connection is there between Arrakis and Salusa Secundus?"
The Baron felt the alertness in Fenring's eyes, said: "No connection yet."
"Yet?"
"You must admit it'd be a way to develop a substantial work force on Arrakis--use the place as a prison planet."
"You anticipate an increase in prisoners?"
"There has been unrest," the Baron admitted. "I've had to squeeze rather severely, Fenring. After all, you know the price I paid that damnable Guild to transport our mutual force to Arrakis. That money has to come from somewhere."
"I suggest you not use Arrakis as a prison planet without the Emperor's permission, Baron."
"Of course not," the Baron said, and he wondered at the sudden chill in Fenring's voice.

While the Baron is woefully ignorant about the true numbers and strength of the Fremen, we can see that Fenring is far more concerned about a possible connection between Salusa and Arrakis. Only the Baron's foolish suggestion that the Fremen might be used to mine spice alleviates Fenring's concerns here, as I suspect that if the Baron had let on he was aware of what kind of a resource the Fremen actually are Fenring would have recommended to the Emperor to have him eliminated immediately.

a couple chapters later hawat takes the baron to task about not informing him about this conversation with fenring immediate and why wasn't it caught on tape

tells him that the emperor has used to two years that have elapsed to plant spys all over arrakis to watch for any signs that the harkonnens are trying to exploit the fremens abilitys and that geidi prime would be subject to a "curettement" by the emperor and all the houses joining in if the emperor sees the baron moving in this direction

givens him explicit instruction for rabben which he says he will leak to the imperium to distance himself from actions which the emperor would react to

hawat is acting on the assumption that the emperor himself has been aware of how dangerous the sardaukar understand the fremen to be from at least right after that exchange between the baron and fenring