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    Chapter 45

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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Jun 2010 03:43

    merkin muffley wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It may be sexist bullshit but it is essential to the story.


    FH's ideas about gender are always really complex and well-articulated, though. Sometimes I find it more interesting, possibly because it's more convincing, than the idea that there are no differences between men and women. He usually isn't saying that men are stronger than women, or vice versa. [EDIT]

    I haven't taken the time to really think it through. There must be lots of interesting things written about FH and gender, eh?


    Just to clarify my position (as a "feminist") I do not think that men and women are the same at all, just equal overall, but I think that FH was implying in some ways that they were weaker (which may be truth, and in some ways men are) - and I think he recognised this and compensated for it with females (the BG) essentially running the universe behind the scenes (as many women control men "secretly")
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby merkin muffley » 13 Jun 2010 03:58

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Just to clarify my position (as a "feminist") I do not think that men and women are the same at all, just equal overall


    I realize that, and am in agreement. I was playing devil's advocate a little bit.

    but I think that FH was implying in some ways that they were weaker (which may be truth, and in some ways men are) - and I think he recognised this and compensated for it with females (the BG) essentially running the universe behind the scenes (as many women control men "secretly")


    I also think that's probably true, and would like to read an in-depth analysis of the way FH treats gender because it's very complex.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Eyes High » 13 Jun 2010 16:13

    Isn't that they way, we as a society, view the gender roles. We each have a feminine and masculine side to us, yet if a man or woman shows too much of the opposite gender we ridicule them.

    If a man is sensitive and easily shows his emotions we say he is a sissy. When women show their emotion and cry at movies we think nothing of it.

    If a woman hides her emotions we call her cold. If a woman is self-assured and/or good at thing that we normally associate as a man's territory we call her a butch.

    I'm sure this was very strong in Frank's time. Even though he was ahead in so many areas he probably reflected society's viewpoint on gender roles into his stories. Rather he did this intentionally or unintentionally we may never know.

    But just as we associate certain emotions being gender base -- anger, love, caring, self-sacrificing, etc.. -- couldn't or wouldn't future generations do the same for the different elements of prescience?
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby D Pope » 14 Jun 2010 03:34

    There are differences, just ignore the stereotypes. Frank only messed around with superfluous qualities to make a point, he always looked for basic, integral attributes.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Jun 2010 06:54

    SadisticCynic wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Also keep in mind that the oracle creates the future. If you have multiple oracles you have more confusion.


    Could the blank spots be futures that are already determined, in some sense, by another oracle? :think:


    That's my theory. Each oracle creates his own universe or sphere of influence, through prescience. How big it is varies directly with how powerfull the oracle is. For example, Paul's might cover the known universe while a Guild Navigator's only encompasses his immediate surroundings or perhaps a planet or solar system. Even though a navigator's sphere might be inside Paul's sphere he can't see it because he didn't create it and it is constantly changing based on the decisions made by the lesser oracle. However he might notice the blank spot.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Jan 2012 14:44

    CLEAN SWEET CLEAN BRIGHT CLEAN PURE CLEAN
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Kralizec » 07 Jul 2015 01:01

    I'm writing in the thread for chapter 45 because I don't want to make forward references that would act as "spoilers" for first-time readers. If I've nonetheless chosen the wrong place to leave these remarks, I ask that one not delete them out of hand; please just move them elsewhere, or let me know, and give me some time to move them myself.

    Some readers will recall Frank Herbert's interest in human beings' ability to find patterns. I've found one in Dune itself that seems more than chance can account for. The chapter numbers and summaries in this forum's posts have been quite helpful, and I'm grateful for moderator "Freakzilla's" care and effort in numbering the chapters and writing the summaries. The pattern of interest to me here concerns chapters 9, 18, 27, 36, and 45. I was alerted to the possibility of a pattern by the emphasis on the number 9 or IX in the Dune series. The pattern in these chapters is not an absolute one, but I think Herbert's readers will agree that an absolute pattern would be contrary to Herbert's likely opinions about patterns and absolutes.

    In chapter 9, Yueh has given Paul a drug that would have put him to sleep. Paul has "palmed" the pill, thus using his hand in a way that in effect saves him from dying in his sleep. He seems to sleep but gets up and moves in time to avoid being pinned under his headboard's waves and killed by a hunter-seeker. He is not wearing his shield. He traps the hunter-seeker with his hand and thereby saves the life of the Fremen woman Mapes, who thus feels indebted to him but discharges her debt. She warns him of a traitor, whom we know to be Yueh. Paul realizes his peril and goes to warn his mother.

    Chapter 18 begins with the Dirge for Jamis, which asks Jamis whether he moves "in a kind of sleep." In chapter 9, Paul did not tarry, but the maker of the Dirge says that Jamis did. Paul lived, but Jamis's "life is stolen." In chapter 18, we have not yet actually met Jamis, but we have met the Duke Leto. Leto is awake at a time when he might have been asleep. He is wearing his shield, but he leaves it off. Does Leto "move in a kind of sleep"? Like Paul, Leto encounters Mapes, but he is already too late to save her. Mapes warns him of a traitor, whom we know to be Yueh. Leto realizes his peril, but unlike Paul's hand, Leto's hand is slow. Paul stopped the hunter-seeker, but Leto does not stop Yueh's dart. Yueh did not put Paul to sleep, but he puts Leto to sleep. He has already sedated the house generators.

    In chapter 27, Jessica, though not pinned under a headboard's waves, is buried under a wave of sand. No one puts her to sleep or destroys her, but she puts herself in a kind of sleep and helps to save herself. Paul has saved a Fremen woman by his well-trained hand; that Fremen woman incurred a debt to him and quickly discharged it. Now Paul finds, saves, and wakes his mother, and she wants to train the hands that saved her.

    In chapters 9 and 27, Paul saved a servant woman and his mother, maintaining what he had already. In chapter 36, Paul gains a servant from her husband Jamis, whom Paul slew as Jamis tried to slay him; and Paul gains a wife from her father Liet, who was slain for having saved Paul.

    In chapter 45, Paul gives himself a drug and moves in a kind of sleep. Had he tarried too long, his life would have been stolen, and he could have been counted a victim of his folly. Two women, the mother he saved and the wife he gained, wake him from his death-like sleep and save him.
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