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Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 04 Mar 2010 08:58
by Laphtiya
inhuien wrote:Didn't Reverend Mothers normally wear contacts when going abroad.


This is true and she may have been able to avoid spice addiction, remember that at this time the Sisterhood did not use the water of life to access OM or Truthsay. And how it was hinted that offworld foods on Arrakis tended to reverse/hold back the blue-in-blue effect on the eyes. But I had just assumed she would have used contact lenses as most do later on like Faradin in CoD

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 18 May 2010 08:35
by RedHeadKevin
Here's a question that the later books made me wonder about: Was RM Mohaim the BG's Mother Superior? They always mentioned "Mother Superiors" after Heretics, but was there a Superior in 10,191, and was it Mohaim? She seemed to be one of the high muckety-mucks in the Bene Gesserit.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 18 May 2010 12:00
by SandChigger
There was a Mother Superior at the time of the Battle of Corrin, so it stands to reason there was one in 10191 as well. ;)

But here was a mission that required personal attention from a Bene Gesserit-with-the-Sight. Even the Padishah Emperor's Truthsayer couldn't evade that responsibility when the duty call came.

Mohiam was the Emperor's Truthsayer, so it seems doubtful to me that she could have served effectively as Mother Superior if she were posted to the Court. Plus note the "when the duty call came." Came from the Bene Gesserit upper echelons obviously, the real decision makers, no doubt including the Mother Superior? :)

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 18 May 2010 12:03
by A Thing of Eternity
SandChigger wrote:There was a Mother Superior at the time of the Battle of Corrin, so it stands to reason there was one in 10191 as well. ;)

But here was a mission that required personal attention from a Bene Gesserit-with-the-Sight. Even the Padishah Emperor's Truthsayer couldn't evade that responsibility when the duty call came.

Mohiam was the Emperor's Truthsayer, so it seems doubtful to me that she could have served effectively as Mother Superior if she were posted to the Court. Plus note the "when the duty call came." Came from the Bene Gesserit upper echelons obviously, the real decision makers, no doubt including the Mother Superior? :)


Nicely done, I was going to answer "I don't think she was, but I don't think there's much evidence either way" obviously I have much more to hammer into my memory!

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 18 May 2010 12:05
by RedHeadKevin
Yep, I missed that too. Good catch there. Of course, I probably assumed that the "duty call" came from the Emperor. Now that I think more about it, that really doesn't make any sense.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 18 May 2010 13:42
by Freakzilla
Mohiam's job is told in one of the later chapters...

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 18 May 2010 18:45
by SandChigger
Um, at least that was her job when Jessica underwent the gom jabbar, no?

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 18 May 2010 19:13
by Freakzilla
SandChigger wrote:Um, at least that was her job when Jessica underwent the gom jabbar, no?


Yes, a pretty high up position in the BG, I'd imagine. She seems to be know at the time as being the emperor's truthsayer, I imagine she'd had that job for quite a while but that's just speculation.

Nothing else is mentioned about her role in the BG that I can recall.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 14 Sep 2010 16:11
by DarthRachel
Hey guys! I'm new here. A few of the regulars found me thru Sandchigger because I've started a Dune re-read project on my blog. It was suggested to me that I link it here so here it is, Chapter 1. The rest of the book I'm doing in multiple chapter dumps.

http://scienceofdiscontent.blogspot.com/2010/08/dune-re-read-part-1.html

Ok thanks! See everyone around!

-DarthRachel

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 15 Sep 2010 05:58
by lotek
wasn't Mohiam a big shot in the Breeding Program? I have this vague memory of it being mentionned somewhere(that not being enough I'll look for proof one way or another)
It would make sense that she was though, being the Emperor's Truthsayer is indeed a position of honour, but is that of any value in the eyes of the Sisterhood?
Plus the fact that they were a generation away from the KH(or so they thought), which was one of the most carefully guarded secret of the BG(yes among many others).
That would require a high level security clearance in that specific field, considering the "need to know" basis of the Sisterhood.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 15 Sep 2010 08:51
by Freakzilla
lotek wrote:It would make sense that she was though, being the Emperor's Truthsayer is indeed a position of honour, but is that of any value in the eyes of the Sisterhood?


The BGs primary business is politics. The breeding program was a means to that end.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 15 Sep 2010 09:26
by Apjak
lotek wrote:Plus the fact that they were a generation away from the KH(or so they thought), which was one of the most carefully guarded secret of the BG(yes among many others).
That would require a high level security clearance in that specific field, considering the "need to know" basis of the Sisterhood.


I think that all Reverend Mothers were aware of the Kwisatz Haderach possibility, and only Reverend Mothers would be in the know in the BG breeding program. However Jessica seemed to know about it, and even "sensed the possibility" the she could bear it. How much she was deliberately told about the KH breeding program is up for speculation, given that she was almost certainly seen as a potential RM by the BG.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 05 Jan 2011 10:38
by SadisticCynic
Gom Jabbar: the high-handed enemy; that specific poison needle tipped with meta-cyanide used by Bene Gesserit Proctors in the death-alternative test of human awareness.


Did anyone ever figure out what meta-cyanide might be?

Meta = beyond e.g. meta-physics = beyond nature.

:?:

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 05 Jan 2011 16:24
by merkin muffley
SadisticCynic wrote:
Gom Jabbar: the high-handed enemy; that specific poison needle tipped with meta-cyanide used by Bene Gesserit Proctors in the death-alternative test of human awareness.


Did anyone ever figure out what meta-cyanide might be?

Meta = beyond e.g. meta-physics = beyond nature.

:?:



You wouldn't be able to kill a BG with cyanide, because they're able to convert poisons into a harmless form. So, is it because the Gom Jabbar could kill a BG, tipped with something "beyond cyanide?"

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 05 Jan 2011 16:32
by Apjak
merkin muffley wrote:
SadisticCynic wrote:
Gom Jabbar: the high-handed enemy; that specific poison needle tipped with meta-cyanide used by Bene Gesserit Proctors in the death-alternative test of human awareness.


Did anyone ever figure out what meta-cyanide might be?

Meta = beyond e.g. meta-physics = beyond nature.

:?:



You wouldn't be able to kill a BG with cyanide, because they're able to convert poisons into a harmless form. So, is it because the Gom Jabbar could kill a BG, tipped with something "beyond cyanide?"


I wonder if Meta-Cyanide was another of the "poisons" the BG had that they could use for "The Agony".

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 05 Jan 2011 16:42
by Omphalos
SadisticCynic wrote:
Gom Jabbar: the high-handed enemy; that specific poison needle tipped with meta-cyanide used by Bene Gesserit Proctors in the death-alternative test of human awareness.


Did anyone ever figure out what meta-cyanide might be?

Meta = beyond e.g. meta-physics = beyond nature.

:?:


I guess that just meant it was really, really "cyanidey," or, from the Latin, "Cyanidissimus."

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 05 Jan 2011 18:44
by SadisticCynic
merkin muffley wrote:
SadisticCynic wrote:
Gom Jabbar: the high-handed enemy; that specific poison needle tipped with meta-cyanide used by Bene Gesserit Proctors in the death-alternative test of human awareness.


Did anyone ever figure out what meta-cyanide might be?

Meta = beyond e.g. meta-physics = beyond nature.

:?:



You wouldn't be able to kill a BG with cyanide, because they're able to convert poisons into a harmless form. So, is it because the Gom Jabbar could kill a BG, tipped with something "beyond cyanide?"


You couldn't kill a BG with cyanide, no, but would you be testing RMs to see if they are human? I can't recall any mention of the gom jabbar being threatening to a someone who is beyond the Agony. If they can manipulate some poisons, why not others?

Apjak: I thought that as well, but then when I tried to think why I thought that I got stuck... :) In this chapter, when Mohiam explains the KH's need to take a poison she doesn't use the gom jabbar but rather talks about the Truthsayer drug, presumably a different thing.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 05 Jan 2011 23:18
by Freakzilla
Jessica's Gom Jabbar may not have killed Leto but the poison could have distracted Leto while she gained the upper hand.

Leto hadn't taken the spice overdose yet and obviously hadn't had to convert a lethal dose of poison or he'd have had to integrate his OM. Knowledge doesn't equal experience, Paul went into a three week coma from one drop of WoL.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 19 Jan 2011 19:50
by Freakzilla
I've edited my summary (the original post) will y'all please read and pick it apart?

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 19 Jan 2011 21:39
by redbugpest
I think that there is some significance to Paul's deduction of the function of the BG.

"Politics," he said.
"Kull wahad!" the old woman said. She sent a hard glance at Jessica.
"I've not told him. Your Reverence," Jessica said.
The Reverend Mother returned her attention to Paul. "You did that on remarkably few clues," she said.


I would mention that he deduced that function to the RMs surprise.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 19 Jan 2011 22:22
by Freakzilla
I think what is currently significant is how KJA and BH's copy of Dune apparently didn't include the epigraph.

Either that or they didn't understand it.

I'm going to translate for the less-than-gifted...

A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct.

If you don't get the facts right at the beginning you won't understand.

This every sister of the Bene Gesserit knows.

It's common knowledge, man.

To begin your study of the life of Muad'Dib, then,

We're talking about Muad'dib,

...take care that you first place him in his time: born in the 57th year of the Padishah Emperor, Shaddam IV. And take the most special care that you locate Muad'Dib in his place: the planet Arrakis.

File that for later.

Do not be deceived by the fact that he was born on Caladan and lived his first fifteen years there.

This is a fact.

He was born on Caladan and lived there until he was fifteen.

Arrakis, the planet known as Dune, is forever his place.

He did real cool stuff on Dune.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 20 Jan 2011 11:12
by Freakzilla
redbugpest wrote:I think that there is some significance to Paul's deduction of the function of the BG.

"Politics," he said.
"Kull wahad!" the old woman said. She sent a hard glance at Jessica.
"I've not told him. Your Reverence," Jessica said.
The Reverend Mother returned her attention to Paul. "You did that on remarkably few clues," she said.


I would mention that he deduced that function to the RMs surprise.


I misread the intent of your post earlier, thanks for the input. I have added that Mohiam was suprised Paul figured this out.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 17:27
by Enno
When Paul says you take a lot on yourselves he isn't kidding! Why is it so important to Mohiam that he live up to her definition of human? Would she really have killed him if he flinched? I know it seems his mom acted like it but if theyre going around making all nobility put their hand in the box then even a few failures would have made the news. Aristocrats dont like loosing their heirs.
Funny how different the book is from the movie. Mohiam show a lot more emotion in this chapter then she did in Lynches film.

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:03
by SadisticCynic
Mohiam would indeed have killed him if he removed his hand from the box. Remember that only certain people are tested to see if they are human; Paul is suspected to be the KH, a male Bene Gesserit (more or less) and so would be tested in this manner. So hopefully lots of aristocrats would not be losing heirs.

Imagine if Paul did not live up to Mohiam's definition of being human and did turn out to be the KH. What then? They have unleashed an animal (Mohiam's def.) with enormous powers upon the universe!

I'm not sure how many of the books you've read so I'll say no more on that; it would be inappropriate for this forum anyway. :)

(Oh yeah, welcome! :D )

(Hey Freak, if you reckon I've done a little bit of spoiling I shouldn't have let me know.)

Re: Chapter 01

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 19:39
by Enno
SadisticCynic wrote:2) Mohiam would indeed have killed him if he removed his hand from the box. Remember that only certain people are tested to see if they are human; Paul is suspected to be the KH, a male Bene Gesserit (more or less) and so would be tested in this manner. So hopefully lots of aristocrats would not be losing heirs.

She says its for breeding. And she makes it sound like it happens a lot like sand through a screen. Theres no political continuity without separating human from animal stock for breeding sounds like theyve made it their mission to manage the breeding of the whole aristocracy. I understand the Paul may be the KH but she implies the she wont let an animal be a political leader.