Chapter 02

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Serkanner
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby Serkanner » 09 Mar 2018 11:15

Well. That is one complete answer. Thank you.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

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Freakzilla
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Mar 2018 11:54

Serkanner wrote:Well. That is one complete answer. Thank you.


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distrans
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby distrans » 14 Mar 2018 09:05

has anyone every done a treatise on dune from the economic perspective?

I take it we don't know much about CHOAM and the laandsrad...

its puzzling to me that they could control spice mining for decades and NOT be among the top players in the realm

georgiedenbro
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby georgiedenbro » 15 Mar 2018 15:09

distrans wrote:has anyone every done a treatise on dune from the economic perspective?

I take it we don't know much about CHOAM and the laandsrad...

its puzzling to me that they could control spice mining for decades and NOT be among the top players in the realm


Better question would be "what is CHOAM"? Based on what we learn in Dune it would seem to be an organization running in parallel with the Landsraad, the one being the economic side of the Empire and the other being the mercantile side. In reality there's probably not that much distinction between the players in each, where the strongest in one would be the strongest in the other (in the case of this book, the Emperor). One exception might well be in the cases of the Atreides and Harkonnens, where the Harkonnens have become powerful in CHOAM but perhaps not as influential in the Landsraad, whereas the Atreides aren't that wealthy and so not that influential in CHOAM but are conversely very influential in the Landsraad.
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distrans
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby distrans » 15 Mar 2018 17:21

lets put it this way

the imperium was satisfied with the way the barron did his business there for decades

hard to believe that suddenly he failed short to some metric he was being judged on

georgiedenbro
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby georgiedenbro » 16 Mar 2018 14:00

distrans wrote:lets put it this way

the imperium was satisfied with the way the barron did his business there for decades

hard to believe that suddenly he failed short to some metric he was being judged on


Are you asking why the Arrakis fiefdom was taken away from the Baron and given to the Atreides?
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distrans
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby distrans » 16 Mar 2018 18:31

no,
I'm asking why having the mining right wasn't the next best thing to being the emperor

oh, and I'm curious as to how old the baron was at the time?

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Freakzilla
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby Freakzilla » 16 Mar 2018 21:55

distrans wrote:no,
I'm asking why having the mining right wasn't the next best thing to being the emperor


Because the emperor held a majority of CHOAM holdings plus the Sardaukar and the Great Houses that backed him. Spice, allthough very important, was a very small part of CHOAM.

oh, and I'm curious as to how old the baron was at the time?


81 at the beginning of the book.
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distrans
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby distrans » 17 Mar 2018 02:04

did the baron inherit his animosity toward the atreides?

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Freakzilla
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Mar 2018 07:16

distrans wrote:did the baron inherit his animosity toward the atreides?


Apparently the two families had been feuding since the Battle of Corrin.

"There'll be much bloodshed soon," she said. "The Harkonnens won't rest
until they're dead or my Duke destroyed. The Baron cannot forget that Leto is a
cousin of the royal blood--no matter what the distance--while the Harkonnen
titles came out of the CHOAM pocketbook. But the poison in him, deep in his
mind, is the knowledge that an Atreides had a Harkonnen banished for cowardice
after, the Battle of Corrin."

~Dune
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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georgiedenbro
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Re: Chapter 02

Postby georgiedenbro » 19 Mar 2018 09:34

distrans wrote:I'm asking why having the mining right wasn't the next best thing to being the emperor


One thing to remember about this is that there are two facets to power: official power, and actual power. Officially the Emperor controlled most of the power, as Freakzilla mentioned. But in fact whoever controlled the spice would have leverage that even the Emperor couldn't contest. We see this fact in action at the end of Dune, where destruction of spice production trumps everything the Emperor has and then some. But even putting aside something as grandiose as destroying the spice, even to control a windfall of spice would make someone very powerful. One of the threads in the book to remember is the Baron's plan, which was to stockpile spice in order to afford this crazy adventure, and then use the recapture of Arrakis to install Rabban, and finally to send in Feyd to save Arrakis from Rabban and use the spice production plus the Fremen to threaten the Emperor. In other words, he was going to do exactly what Paul did, but just without that added detail of knowing how to destroy the spice.

When we look at the Baron's plan, it makes it clear that even the Emperor had been underestimating the kind of power that could come from controlling spice production. The Emperor always thought that whoever mined it didn't matter since it was officially under his control, but obviously he was wrong about that. So I do agree with the notion that allowing various families to control spice production was in hindsight a serious mistake on his part. He thought he could reap all the profit while doing none of the dirty work, and in the process probably making allies for himself among the grateful families he assigned to Arrakis. In the end the mining right wasn't just the next best thing to being Emperor - it was better, providing someone knew how to take control of it totally like Paul did. And the reason why this was even possible was because of what was discussed in the other thread about how powerful the Guild is. It was they who instructed Shaddam that Paul was the new Emperor.
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