Question on Guild structure

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Omphalos
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Question on Guild structure

Postby Omphalos » 09 Feb 2008 20:00

I have a question about the way the Guild order was structured. There is a quote in Dune that implies there are at least three stages of navigator. Is anyone else aware of more on this? Other than what the '84 movie gives us, that is.

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Postby Freakzilla » 09 Feb 2008 20:55

"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."

~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.

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Postby Simon » 09 Feb 2008 21:01

yes, I'd say their aren't "stages" in any official sense. I'm sure the Guildsman goes through different developmental stages from human to full Steersman but based on FH,BH&KJA stuff, I doubt that the Guild is like "Hey you got webbed feet this week! Some....one... is getting a merit badge!" :lol:

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Postby Omphalos » 09 Feb 2008 21:24

Freakzilla wrote:"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."

~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.


Was it really HoD? I thought that there was something in Dune itself. Or maybe during the scene where Scytale, Edric, Mohiam and Irulan are scheming in DM? Hmmm.

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Postby GamePlayer » 09 Feb 2008 21:40

I'm 61 pages into Dune Messiah. I haven't encountered any mention of "stages" as yet, but I'll make sure to note any instances and the page number.

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Postby Omphalos » 09 Feb 2008 21:42

Thanks, GamePlayer!

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Postby GamePlayer » 09 Feb 2008 22:05

No problem. Is there anything else I should note? I'm going through the book now so it's a good time. I might just take a few notes of important facts and mentions for future reference.

I have noted that they make mention of the color of the spice (blue, as opposed to my erroneous impression at one time that I thought it was green). They also make mention of the fish-like appearance of the navigators or "steersmen" very early on in the book. I think the first chapter. Oh and the metal Ixian eyes are mentioned for the first time when the Ghola arrives.

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Postby Phaedrus » 11 Feb 2008 07:00

Edric refers to himself as a "full" Guild Navigator who has the "Power," but no mention of stages, as far as I know.

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Postby Simon » 11 Feb 2008 20:33

GamePlayer wrote:No problem. Is there anything else I should note? I'm going through the book now so it's a good time. I might just take a few notes of important facts and mentions for future reference.

I have noted that they make mention of the color of the spice (blue, as opposed to my erroneous impression at one time that I thought it was green). They also make mention of the fish-like appearance of the navigators or "steersmen" very early on in the book. I think the first chapter. Oh and the metal Ixian eyes are mentioned for the first time when the Ghola arrives.


I used to picture it as cinnamon red before I caught on that it was blue in tint.
As for the Steersmen, I think the one in the CoD-mini was closest to the fish like description.

I'd always wondered where Lynch got "vagina for mouth.. attached to a fleshy chunk of ugly" from! I love the 84 DUNE but that navigator is all wrong.

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Postby GamePlayer » 11 Feb 2008 21:33

The Lynch navigator (courtesy of the brilliant Carlo Rambaldi) was indeed way off as far as canon, but the creature was a great special effects creation in and of itself.

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Postby GodEmperorJason » 12 Feb 2008 16:23

Simon wrote:yes, I'd say their aren't "stages" in any official sense. I'm sure the Guildsman goes through different developmental stages from human to full Steersman but based on FH,BH&KJA stuff, I doubt that the Guild is like "Hey you got webbed feet this week! Some....one... is getting a merit badge!" :lol:



Damn, I was trying for the webbed feet merit badge!
"MY WORDS ARE YOUR PAST, MY QUESTIONS ARE SIMPLE:
"WITH WHOM DO YOU ALLY?
"WITH THE SELF-IDOLATORS OF TLEILAX?
"WITH MY FISH SPEAKER BUREAUCRACY?
"WITH THE COSMOS-WANDERING GUILD?
"WITH HARKONNEN BLOOD SACRIFICERS?
"WITH A DOGMATIC SINK OF YOUR OWN CREATION?
"HOW WILL YOU MEET YOUR END?
"AS NO MORE THAN A SECRET SOCIETY?"

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Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2008 16:32

I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.

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Postby Phaedrus » 12 Feb 2008 19:31

Freakzilla wrote:I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.


QFT.

Although, he wasn't wearing a leotard, didn't have a bulgy utility belt at his waist, and didn't pop spice pills. I guess one can't be TOO picky.

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 12 Feb 2008 19:33

Phaedrus wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.


QFT.

Although, he wasn't wearing a leotard, didn't have a bulgy utility belt at his waist, and didn't pop spice pills. I guess one can't be TOO picky.
:lol:
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Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2008 19:48

QFT?

Anatomically he seemed correct, as far as I could tell.

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Postby Phaedrus » 12 Feb 2008 19:55

Quoted for Truth.

I agree, although I always did imagine him a bit more...human.

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Postby Freakzilla » 12 Feb 2008 20:25

Phaedrus wrote:Quoted for Truth.


D'oh, I don't think that's the first time I've asked you what that means. Maybe I'll remember it now.

:oops:

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Postby Simon » 13 Feb 2008 03:42

Freakzilla wrote:I thought Edric in the COD Mini was pretty accurate.


::nodding vigorously:: I agree!

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Postby Simon » 13 Feb 2008 03:42

GodEmperorJason wrote:
Simon wrote:yes, I'd say their aren't "stages" in any official sense. I'm sure the Guildsman goes through different developmental stages from human to full Steersman but based on FH,BH&KJA stuff, I doubt that the Guild is like "Hey you got webbed feet this week! Some....one... is getting a merit badge!" :lol:



Damn, I was trying for the webbed feet merit badge!


:lol:

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Postby Robspierre » 20 Feb 2008 01:58

I love Lynch's navigator, its appearance truly showed that we were in an alien universe that had diverged far from our own, much more interesting than the Star Trek approach to aliens.

Rob

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Postby inhuien » 20 Feb 2008 05:42

Phaedrus wrote:Quoted for Truth.


hehe ;) my first thought was that you meant "Quit Fucking Talking" But WTF do I know we're always quick to take offence here in Glasgow, Ya Bam :twisted: :D
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Postby Rakis » 22 Feb 2008 00:11

Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."

~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.


Was it really HoD? I thought that there was something in Dune itself. Or maybe during the scene where Scytale, Edric, Mohiam and Irulan are scheming in DM? Hmmm.


Well, in Dune, the two Navigators at the end of the book, the ones with Shaddam, are not in a tank full of spice, they just look human, but Paul calls them Navigators, because they could foresee that Paul would destroy the spice if the fleet does not leave...so maybe it's a clue that there is more than one stage ?? :|
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Postby Robspierre » 22 Feb 2008 00:34

I think Frank kept evolving the concept of navigator though it is possible that the guild had layers of bureaucracy and used generic titles to further blur the lines and to keep a sense of mystery as well as creating a screen to hide their operations from prying eyes.

Rob

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Postby Freakzilla » 22 Feb 2008 19:13

Rakis wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:"All at the powindah conference affirmed this," Waff said. "Even a third-stage
Guild steersman agrees."

~Heretics of Dune

That's the first instance I know of.

Coincidentally, HoD came out just the same year as the movie.

I think it was a Lynch thing that FH picked up.


Was it really HoD? I thought that there was something in Dune itself. Or maybe during the scene where Scytale, Edric, Mohiam and Irulan are scheming in DM? Hmmm.


Well, in Dune, the two Navigators at the end of the book, the ones with Shaddam, are not in a tank full of spice, they just look human, but Paul calls them Navigators, because they could foresee that Paul would destroy the spice if the fleet does not leave...so maybe it's a clue that there is more than one stage ?? :|


I always imagined there were three stages; first stage is normal looking and prescient like the Guild agents at the end of Dune, third stage is in a tank like Edric, and second is somewhere between. There's next to nothing about it in the books.

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Postby Rakis » 22 Feb 2008 23:38

They were planning some sort of second stage Navigator in the Lynch film, but it was cut because of budget or something. I think it was because they were afraid of getting sued by the Elephant man... :wink:

http://www.duneinfo.com/arrakis/navigators/

(Scroll down a little)
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