Heighliner Speed

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 18 Sep 2009 13:15

SadisticCynic wrote:Indeed; there would be no need for the Heighliner to move through the wormhole though.


When it comes to something as thoroughly messed up as a wormhole, I don't think the concepts of "move" or "through" would even necessarily apply. Like QM, this is probably something where the reality of what happens is simply outside of what our brains can process.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby SwordMaster » 21 Sep 2009 19:03

folding space would have to take a fair amount of time, and extended by the distance, but I would imagine not a long time, the time would have mostly been docking all of the smaller ships
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Slugger » 21 Sep 2009 20:06

SwordMaster wrote:folding space would have to take a fair amount of time, and extended by the distance, but I would imagine not a long time, the time would have mostly been docking all of the smaller ships


It'd take an awful amount of energy, that's for sure.

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby RedHeadKevin » 23 Sep 2009 12:51

They don't fold space. Irulan just made that up for story purposes.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Omphalos » 23 Sep 2009 20:27

Slugger wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:folding space would have to take a fair amount of time, and extended by the distance, but I would imagine not a long time, the time would have mostly been docking all of the smaller ships


It'd take an awful amount of energy, that's for sure.


Who know how much energy this will take. Its a dream-land ya-ya technology for sure, but one thing that it could be is just a gravity-based method of travel. They seemed to have other anti-grav tech in the Dune universe, so I imagine it could be. If its that, then its probably done with quantum (microscopic) black holes, which theoretically can be controlled with large electromagnets.

Another way to do this, which I think Frank was not pointing to, is the result of figuring out that which Heisenberg said is un-figurable. Once we find ways to describe the inclination, attitude, and velocity of a particle, then conceivably we will be able to "reprogram" them. You could find some space in another system, and tell the particles there to become something that they werent before. Take a look at Bear's Moving Mars and Anvil of Stars for some ideas on that.

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Onasander » 07 May 2010 02:45

I may be wrong (and do quote where if I am) but I don't remember Frank mentioning ever anything about wormholes. I also remember it all being remarkably vague as to what the Spacing Guild's SOPs were to folding space.... is it risky to fold space inside a solar system, or even right above a planet, partially submerged in it's higher atmosphere? I don't know- that's one of those trial and error things you can only learn from hard science and long experience- it can go in any direction.

I do know this- Guild Navigators- though we like to think of them as neutered, dependent, fearful, and manipulative- were very, very evolved beyond OUR standards- no one on this forum matches that sort of intelligence. I am hesitant on saying how exactly they did stuff beyond basic explanations. I tend to think of it in terms of the old book Flatworld and take it at it's simplest, most face value explanation.... I don't think of the explanation as too basic and requiring more explanation- but rather- being in the two principles as advanced and as truthful as possible without compromising one for the other. The Navigators might be at a total loss for explanation because we can't grasp it- and that's the best they can do 'we fold space dammit, quit trying to figure this out more indepth, takes a massive brain, and a shitload of spice to grasp it you peabrained fool'

This being said- we don't know the extent of how skill or experience actually plays. We don't know what the limitations or the general, universal modulations and equalizers are. The spacelanes most traveled will be very well known..... because everyone travels them..... there might not really be much of a skill issue more of the time- no matter the driver, most greyhounds just- well- get there- no matter the level of experience.

I love how Frank left this up in the air- it wasn't really essential to the story- just a nice throw in- and he wasn't too keen on delving into it- just gave you enough to know something was going on- enough to carry the basic storyline, but never indepth very far. The guild played a central role in the overall web of power politics- but never the central attraction in the storyline..... even when he did focus for a bit on a guild character, or the subject of the guild- he knocked them down a peg. I think Frank wasn't a big fan of Public Transportation..... must of had a bad busride somewhere.

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 May 2010 20:22

Folding space is what happens with wormholes. Doesn't matter if FH said it or not, that would be the scientific explanation of what is happening when the ship crosses over.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Freakzilla » 07 May 2010 20:28

Technicaly it would be an Einstein-Rosen Bridge... also known as a wormhole.

http://www.krioma.net/articles/Bridge%2 ... Bridge.htm
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby SandChigger » 07 May 2010 21:13

Which again, technically, is never mentioned as what is used by the Holtzman engines. ;)

Onasander wrote:the Spacing Guild's SOPs were to folding space.... is it risky to fold space inside a solar system, or even right above a planet

Not, since there is NO mention of time spent traveling from a spacefolding destination to planetary orbit or vice versa. When the Emperor and assembled Houses of the Landsraad come to Arrakis, they fold into the system ABOVE the planet. READ the books.

partially submerged in it's higher atmosphere?

Like that episode in BSG, right? WHY would they? Heighliners are not warships. READ the books.

I do know this- Guild Navigators- though we like to think of them as neutered, dependent, fearful, and manipulative

Oh, is that how YOU think of them? Interesting.

no one on this forum matches that sort of intelligence.

Huh? Has anyone here EVER compared themselves to a Guild Navigator in terms of intelligence? I must have missed that. Or you must have imagined it? Anything for a cheap shot, eh! :roll:

The spacelanes most traveled will be very well known..... because everyone travels them..... there might not really be much of a skill issue more of the time- no matter the driver, most greyhounds just- well- get there- no matter the level of experience.

Yeah, the mathematical calculations could be performed by a machine. But that's not what the Navigators are really about, now is it?

Yawn.

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Freakzilla » 07 May 2010 21:34

But "foldspace" (or some variation) is mentioned. Foldspace isn't a technical term but the closest thing I can imagine is a wormhole. Everytime I see someone try to explain it on TV or in movies they fold a piece of paper in half and poke a hole through it.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby SandChigger » 07 May 2010 22:20

Right, foldspace is mentioned but wormholes aren't. (Except in the sense of an actual wormhole in wood, as the tunnel for a train or tube transportation system.) And just because the "folded paper" illustration is used to explain the idea of folding space as a way of shortening travel distance and looks a lot like the illustration used for wormholes, it doesn't necessarily mean the two ideas are fundamentally related or that a wormhole is necessarily involved in the spacefolding travel concept. You could also illustrate a wormhole like this, for instance:

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with our "real space" universe shown as the surface of a sphere and the wormhole as a straight line through (the hyperspace or other dimension of?) its interior.

I'm just saying it seems a bit unwarranted to assume the Holtzman engines generate a wormhole. Especially when the existence of the latter has not even been proven. That's kinda like ... taking a few references in the latter books and imagining some kind of great information/communications net composed of tachyons. ;)

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Freakzilla » 07 May 2010 22:58

No, there's nothing that specifically states what the holtzman generators do, but I've always thought of it as a wormhole because of the foldspace reference.

But now that I think about it more, it seems you'd need two generators, one to create the black hole you enter and one to create the white hole you exit, so that doesn't make sense either.

May as well be magic. :wink:
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby SandChigger » 07 May 2010 23:17

Freakzilla wrote:May as well be magic. :wink:

:lol:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology..." ;)

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 May 2010 00:18

Whoa, when did anyone say you need a black hole to enter a wormhole? You need a negative energy feild to pass through one, but black and white holes? I'm betting you're referring to something you read, because you're pretty anal about this stuff, but I've never heard anything like that. Black holes are NOT something you want to go entering!

Unless you refer to a strong positive grav feild to generate the fold itself?
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby inhuien » 09 May 2010 14:04

Stephen Hawking defines a Wormhole thus.
A thin tube of space-time connecting distant regions of Universe. Wormholes might aslo link to paralel or baby universes and could provide the possibility of time-travel.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Freakzilla » 09 May 2010 14:08

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Whoa, when did anyone say you need a black hole to enter a wormhole? You need a negative energy feild to pass through one, but black and white holes? I'm betting you're referring to something you read, because you're pretty anal about this stuff, but I've never heard anything like that. Black holes are NOT something you want to go entering!

Unless you refer to a strong positive grav feild to generate the fold itself?


Schwarzschild wormholes



Lorentzian wormholes known as Schwarzschild wormholes or Einstein-Rosen bridges are bridges between areas of space that can be modeled as vacuum solutions to the Einstein field equations, and which are now understood to be intrinsic parts of the maximally extended version of the Schwarzschild metric describing an eternal black hole with no charge and no rotation. Here, "maximally extended" refers to the idea that the spacetime should not have any "edges": for any possible trajectory of a free-falling particle (following a geodesic) in the spacetime, it should be possible to continue this path arbitrarily far into the particle's future or past, unless the trajectory hits a gravitational singularity like the one at the center of the black hole's interior. In order to satisfy this requirement, it turns out that in addition to the black hole interior region which particles enter when they fall through the event horizon from the outside, there must be a separate white hole interior region which allows us to extrapolate the trajectories of particles which an outside observer sees rising up away from the event horizon. And just as there are two separate interior regions of the maximally extended spacetime, there are also two separate exterior regions, sometimes called two different "universes", with the second universe allowing us to extrapolate some possible particle trajectories in the two interior regions. This means that the interior black hole region can contain a mix of particles that fell in from either universe (and thus an observer who fell in from one universe might be able to see light that fell in from the other one), and likewise particles from the interior white hole region can escape into either universe. All four regions can be seen in a spacetime diagram which uses Kruskal–Szekeres coordinates, as discussed and illustrated on the page White Holes and Wormholes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

The complete Schwarzschild geometry consists of a black hole, a white hole, and two Universes connected at their horizons by a wormhole. The name "black hole" was invented in 1968 by John Archibald Wheeler. Before Wheeler, these objects were often referred to as ‘black stars’[7] or ‘frozen stars’.

It was Austrian Ludwig Flamm who had realised that Schwarzschild's solution (called the Schwarzschild Metric) to Einstein's equations actually describes a wormhole connecting two regions of flat space-time; two universes, or two parts of the same universe.

A white hole (from the negative square root solution inside the horizon) is a black hole running backwards in time. Just as black holes swallow things irretrievably, so white holes spit them out. However white holes cannot exist, since they violate the second law of thermodynamics[8].

http://www.krioma.net/articles/Bridge%2 ... Bridge.htm
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby merkin muffley » 09 May 2010 14:26

A very effective introduction to the concept of wormholes, there, and now, a quick riposte from Onasander...

Onasander?

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 May 2010 20:29

Thanks for posting that, I wasn't aware that white hole referred to a singularity of negative gravity. Neat.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Borrace » 12 May 2010 14:06

i think in God Emperor, there's a little blurb less than 100 pages in where there's a BG report on the Spacing Guild where it actually describes the speed that the guild ships travel as "trans-light" speeds...whatever that means. i had just assumed that the holzman engines were able to warp space/time and work on similar principals as the shield generators or the no-ships/no-rooms and that while the the action is described as "folding space" the holzman engines really removed an entire ship FROM normal space so that it could achieve faster than light speeds. the guild navigators would then utilize mathmatics and linear precience to determine if the course they plotted would send them through planets or comets or asteroids or stars - i.e. the navagators, like paul, had TRUE preciense, but only for that single calculation that has been made with respect to their ship, passengers, and anything else within the "sphere of influence" of that navagator. not for the entire universe - like paul's precience.

in the end, it really doesn't matter much for the story lines.

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 May 2010 14:11

That much is true for sure, it doesn't have much effect on the overall plotting.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Borrace » 13 May 2010 13:30

oh wait...i found the answer in heretics of dune...it says the guild ships go "kazallions of miles per hour".

j/k :D

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Freakzilla » 13 May 2010 13:32

Ludichrist speed... sometimes they go plaid.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby georgiedenbro » 07 Aug 2014 11:54

There are a few possible solutions of what foldspace technology might be, given our current standard model of particle theory. Since we expect a sci-fi author to at least vaguely draw from what we think we know, let's assume Frank was either taking from modern theory, or at least speculating based on modern theory. But before I list the few options, let's see what we know for sure about Holtzman engines:

1) The tech behind them is derived from Holtzman's equations.
2) There are a few other techs also derived from Holtzman's equations:
-Suspensors (secondary (low-drain) phase of a Holtzman field generator. It nullifies gravity within certain limits prescribed by relative mass and energy consumption.)
-Shields (the protective field produced by a Holtzman generator. This field derives from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect.)
-Glowglobes (suspensor-buoyed illuminating device, self-powered (usually by organic batteries).)

This tells us a lot. We know for certain, therefore, that Holtzman's equations relate to gravity-effects, as evidenced by all techs that derive from them. Given that anti-gravity is a prominent feature of these techs, we know, therefore, that the equations detail how to manipulate the effects of gravity; in current sci-fi terms this would mean that the equations lead to the ability to create focused graviton or anti-graviton fields.

We can conclude that foldspace tech is a form of gravity drive. I'll describe a few types of gravity drive that we can currently conceptualize, although not yet create:

1) Wormholes. This would, presumably, require a specific application of gravity fields at two different points in the universe, as well as some means of establishing both the stability of the wormhole as well as the ability to enlarge its capacity to permit large objects inside. Star Trek DS9 delves into some sci-fi aspects of this mode of transport. In the Duniverse, though, we appear to see none of the signs we'd expect if this was the method used to transport large ships. Also worth noting is that this mode of transport would also probably be disastrous to introduce anywhere near a star system.

2) Warp drive. This tech is as we see it in Star Trek, and is currently NASA's leading candidate for future propulsion technology.
Source: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/techn ... paper.html
This drive entails contracting spacetime in front of a vessel and subsequently re-expanding it behind the vessel. This allows for FTL travel because the space to traverse is shrunk and therefore can be crossed quickly, while in the current inertial frame the ship may not be moving quickly at all. Further, due to the effects of relative pressure, the ship would be propelled forward automatically by this process (due to being drawn towards the shrunk, more dense and therefore massive, spacetime), thus removing the need for a method of propulsion other than the warp drive itself while in FTL mode. This tech would be more or less effective depending on how powerful the gravity generator was on the ship; more powerful graviton fields would shrink space in front of the ship more effectively. If this is the tech in Dune it could very well explain how one Guild ship could be faster than another. It would also be safer to use than wormholes in proximity to star systems.

3) Space folding. This would involve applying gravity forces so powerful that space in a given region was bent tremendously. Think of the metaphor of folding a piece of paper in half to cross from one end to the other, to get the idea. This tech would be similar to wormhole tech insofar as roughly instantaneous travel would be the result, except that here the folding would be done through brute force, rather than by exploiting Nth dimensional physics. Unlike with wormholes, however, the jump here would only be across the folded portion of space, and couldn't effectively teleport a ship across the universe or very far away. This tech, if it is what is used in Dune, could also explain why some ships are 'faster'; if a strong space-folding resulted from a strong gravity drive, then a larger space-fold could be done and require fewer jumps to get to a far-off destination. Wormhole tech would never require more than one jump, in theory, but space folding would require multiple jumps depending on how powerfully space is folded. I don't really have a clue how safe it would be to jump near to a star system - I would guess not that safe.

Given these three options, I would immediately cross wormholes off the list. The other two are both tempting, but given what we know of Guild Navigators and their need to plot a safe course prior to travelling, I would suggest that #3, space folding, is what we see in Dune. I would surmise, then, that faster Guild ships are ones with more powerful gravity generators that can do longer jumps and require fewer stops and recalculations. After every jump we imagine the Navigator would have to reassess things and calculate the next jump, which would take time, and also might take time to realign the jump engines (i.e. foldspace engines). That Lynch described folding space in the way he did, which must be this method, suggests that it might also be what Frank had in mind, or at least a concretization of what Frank alludes to. I also fully expect that Frank developed this idea further by the time of HoD, as the rest of sci-fi and science had advanced by then and produced a bit of clarity regarding what this type of tech might really entail.

Here is one piece of evidence that tangles things, though: The use of the term "the known universe." This term, as appearing in Dune, is telling. It means that space exploration (as opposed to stellar cartography, which we can even do now) detailed what part of the universe was known through first-hand experience. And from what we can see in terms of the important planets in the Imperium up until GEoD, the entire known universe comprises only a tiny bit of our corner of the Milky Way galaxy. When measuring the distance of colonized planets from Earth, the farthest distance we know of for any planet is Arrakis, which is 310 LY away. The others tend to be much closer (150 LY or less), with some being in the immediate vicinity, such as Caladan, Poritrin, and Giedi Prime. Given that our galaxy is ~70,000 LY across, and other galaxies are much further, we can conclude one of two things: 1) Dune's foldspace tech in the first four books is limited to jumps of only up to around 300 LY (or maybe even much less, if multiple jumps are done to reach a system). 2) Guild Navigators cannot foresee a safe route of travel beyond this distance or less (either due to their mental limitations, or because it's impossible). I guess a third possibility is that prior to the Hubble Space Telescope we didn't know jack about galactic distances and so Frank sort of just made do with what he knew at the time.

There does seem to be a bit of a shift by the time of HoD and CH:D, insofar as we are led to believe that foldspace tech would now be capable of transporting a ship to unlimited distance in one single jump. This would seem to suggest that either foldspace engine of type #3 got a lot stronger, or that the Ixian Navtech is a lot more effective than Guild Navigators. It's also possible this means it was wormholes all along (but this still doesn't jive with what we know would be required to open a stable wormhole and yet is never mentioned). I still favor option #3 as being the consistent tech throughout the Dune series, especially Since Duncan, in CH:D, essentially specifies that no one since Holtzman has determined new uses for his equations since no one but him understood them (except, perhaps, for M&D). This would eliminate the possibility that the Imperium shifted from one form of gravity drive to another after Leto II's reign. I think it's more likely that the ability to use space folding technology simply improved in effectiveness, and it's a good bet that the Ixian tech ended up exceeding what humans could do.

Since merely understanding gravity fields would not, of itself, lead to knowledge of how to construct wormholes, and since it is claimed that no one other than Holtzman understood his own equations, which relate to gravity fields, I maintain that the Imperium would not have the knowledge of wormhole construction and therefore that they had to have been using space folding technology, as Lynch suggests.
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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Aug 2014 12:11

For reference:

Miles Teg knew his history well by then. Guild Navigators no longer were the
only ones who could thread a ship through the folds of space -- in this galaxy
one instant, in a faraway galaxy the very next heartbeat.

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Re: Heighliner Speed

Postby georgiedenbro » 07 Aug 2014 13:27

Freakzilla wrote:For reference:

Miles Teg knew his history well by then. Guild Navigators no longer were the
only ones who could thread a ship through the folds of space -- in this galaxy
one instant, in a faraway galaxy the very next heartbeat.

~Heretics of Dune


Yep, I agree, the contents in the last two books make it difficult to connect the technological capabilities with that of the previous books. I am fully willing to accept that FH initially didn't really know what he wanted the tech to be in specifics (he wisely tended to ignore explicit tech details in his books), but that he later settled on an option that had been floating around sci-fi for a while. If we had to establish a logical continuity for the series, though, I don't think wormholes are it.

With regard to this particular quote (and, by inference, Duncan's thoughts later on that the no-ship had similarly 'unlimited' range), I would suggest that perhaps Teg is engaging in hyperbole? The above quote is, after all, not meant as a statement about the technology's full capabilities, but is more about the fact that the IND broke the Guild monopoly on doing crazy shit. I agree that this reading is not quite 'tidy' but at the same time we must consider that the 'known universe' as of GEoD was a tiny portion of space, and we are never in any way led to believe that any Guild ship ever travelled to a "faraway Galaxy." The Great Houses that went renegade and were hidden by the Guild needed only to travel to some unexplored planet not too far away to effectively vanish, and even The Scattering needn't have ventured too far from Earth (initially) to nevertheless exponentially increase the size of explored space. We're never told anything about this either way, but since 310 LY is the farthest of any planet we know of from Earth, I sincerely doubt anyone was going to any other galaxy, at least until the Scattering (and the first group to explore another galaxy even during the Scattering would have to have had brass balls to even try the jump). I would suggest that this is because they couldn't, but I suppose it could be equally well be explained by the fact that they didn't see any reason to do so.

Frank never cared too much for technobabble, and I wouldn't see him bothering with terms like "we'll travel to a new galactic quadrant", or "closer to the galactic core than anyone's gone." If "faraway galaxy" was meant to express, pretty much, "fucking far", then that would be good enough for me. But yes, I don't think this matter will ever be cleaned up perfectly.
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