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    Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Jan 2009 19:17

    SandChigger wrote:
    Shit. Can they be that stupid? :shock:


    Yes. Yes they can.

    I never did put this one to Byron, I wonder what he would have said about it.
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    Postby SandRider » 23 Jan 2009 20:19

    I think Keith could be that stupid and inattentive
    given his "writing style", as I've commented on before.

    A "writer" writes or types pages out and refers to them,
    reminding himself of his place in the story, concepts,
    things other characters may have said that may have been
    temporarily forgotten in the "looking ahead" to the next
    section - and so forth.

    Keith does none of this - he talks shit off the top of his head,
    edits his pages while listening to blaring rock and roll music,
    sends it to Brian who can't keep a concentrated thought in
    his head for more than a few seconds at a time.

    So yeah, Chig, I agree. If a concept like "goldfish in a fishbowl"
    got stuck in his head, he'd talk that out on the trail, wouldn't think
    too hard about it during "editing", which most likely is just a proof-
    read for typos, and Brian apparently isn't in a position to dissent.
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    on Edric dying

    Postby Sole Man » 23 Jan 2009 20:57

    That's how the Navigator died in the CHILDREN OF DUNE miniseries.

    Maybe the Movies have been his refrences this Whole time! That would explain everything! :shock:
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    Re: on Edric dying

    Postby EsperandoAGodot » 24 Jan 2009 16:18

    Sole Man wrote:That's how the Navigator died in the CHILDREN OF DUNE miniseries.

    Well, that's what it looks like, but we can't be sure that the causality in the movie is the same. Basically, I assumed all his organs were collapsing, his lungs were having trouble expanding, and the lack of ambient spice gas was making him go wonky, not to mention the sudden reintroduction to gravity basically rendered him unable to move. Death, death, and death.

    That's not what KJA wrote.
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    Postby SandChigger » 24 Jan 2009 23:14

    Freakzilla wrote:What's even more retarded about is they published and unpublished chapter in RtD where Alia shoots a hole in Edric's tank and that doesn't happen.

    I just found that. (Hadn't read it before.)

    She shoots a hole of about 2 cm diameter in Edric's tank with a lasgun (p. 373 TOR hdbk). The spice gas starts pouring out. Edric covers the hole from inside the tank, with his hand, and Alia stabs it with her crysknife. He then takes a piece of cloth out of his utility pack and stuffs it into the hole.

    Alia turned, studied the guildsman swimming in his tank. The orange gas had thinned and he appeared pale hanging there in his suspensors. (375)

    So, yeah, they obviously forgot about this scene completely.

    "Very well," Alia said. She turned to the guard captain. "The ambassador is to be held in custody under constant visual guard until his trial," she said. "I wish daily reports on his activities. Meanwhile, you will drain the gas from his tank and have it subjected to analysis. Replace the gas with the pure air of Arrakis."

    "You cannot!" the guildsman protested. "You mustn't."

    "Why not?" Alia asked. "Will it kill you?"

    "You know it won't," he hissed, bringing his face close to the transparent wall of his tank.

    "It will blind his oracular vision," Duncan said. (375-6)

    Another strike-out.

    But, hey, who cares about little details. It's so creative and dramatic to have Edrik die that way in Sandworms, no?!

    And besides, that's thousands of years later, so the Navigators have probably become more dependent on the spice gas, so much so they can't breathe normal air.

    :roll:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    On KJA's ignorance

    Postby Sole Man » 25 Jan 2009 10:41

    KJA you ignorant slut!

    Its almost like he misses this stuff on purpose...maybe he does...maybe there's a reason behind all this...

    This proves that the wikipedia article on navigators is wrong. I was looking over it yesterday, it clearly states that the navigators can't breathe air.

    Wikipedia lied to me! Suck on that Rizoss! :twisted:
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    Postby SandChigger » 25 Jan 2009 11:10

    (Do you understand what the word "slut" means? You don't seem to know how to use it correctly.)

    Add: WP article fixed; text moved to talk page pending source citation. (I don't feel like going back through the history right now to see what fool edited that BS in.)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jan 2009 13:33

    INCONCEIVABLE!

    Sloe man, I've told you befor, sluts do it for free. These men do it for money.

    ...

    It doesn't bother me that this is just an unpublished chapter FH wrote that they contradict, but that was their excuse for fucking up the scene where Duke Leto meets Jessica, wasn't it?

    Not only that, they published the scene for us to find the contradiction!

    It just shows how little they think of their fans in contrast to FH.

    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination.
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    Postby Frybread » 25 Jan 2009 13:39

    Freakzilla wrote:INCONCEIVABLE!

    Sloe man, I've told you befor, sluts do it for free. These men do it for money.

    ...

    It doesn't bother me that this is just an unpublished chapter FH wrote that they contradict, but that was their excuse for fucking up the scene where Duke Leto meets Jessica, wasn't it?

    Not only that, they published the scene for us to find the contradiction!

    It just shows how little they think of their fans in contrast to FH.

    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination.


    Yes. KJA and BH are whores, not sluts.
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    Postby SandChigger » 25 Jan 2009 16:17

    Freakzilla wrote:It doesn't bother me that this is just an unpublished chapter FH wrote that they contradict, but that was their excuse for fucking up the scene where Duke Leto meets Jessica, wasn't it?

    Their line of "thinking" seems to have been "if it was written by FH (and we decide to use it), it's canon".

    Now of course it's "it's all in-universe text written by a propaganda maker; nothing contradicts because it's all possibly false". :evil:

    I thought this was interesting, in their introduction to "Spice Planet", about all those notes they found:

    On p. 25 of RtD, two hacks wrote:We photocopied boxes of this material and then sorted, labeled, and organized everything. The biggest challenge was to make sense of it all. As part of the preparation work before writing our first Dune prequel, we had compiled a detailed concordance and electronically scanned all the text from the original six novels so that we could better search the source material. Now, with highlighter pens, we marked important information in the stacks of notes, illuminating unused blocks of text and descriptions that we might want to incorporate into our novels, character backgrounds, and story ideas.

    So it's entirely possible that they used text written by FH in their other novels besides House Harkonnen, also without crediting FH.

    I'm sorry, but I see a difference between owning the copyright to something written by someone else but hitherto unpublished and taking credit for having written it yourself.

    A moral difference, if not a legal one.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby DuneFishUK » 25 Jan 2009 16:29

    That is true... but at the same time I'm quite glad they didn't plaster FH's name on the covers. That would legitimise what they're doing even more - and that couldn't be good.
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    On KJA being an ignorant slut

    Postby Sole Man » 25 Jan 2009 16:53

    Its a refrence to the old Point/Counter point sketches on Saturday Night live.

    Google "Jane, you Ignorant slut!" and the first result will be a video of Dan and Jane getting itno an Arguement.
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    Postby SandRider » 25 Jan 2009 17:48

    Son, we know that.

    Some of us watched that skit live....
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    On Sandrider's comment

    Postby Sole Man » 25 Jan 2009 19:36

    Alright then, stop being KJA and ignoring what you damn well know to be true!
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    Postby SandRider » 25 Jan 2009 20:07

    What ?

    That Byron Patrick Merritt is an ignorant slut ?

    I'm not the one arguing with you ....


    But you forgot stupid, lazy, weak-minded, oversensitive,
    dishonest, fat, a coward, delusional, paranoid, and a bad
    writer.....
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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    I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
    how to fully interact with people.
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby HarryCanyon » 13 Nov 2010 10:54

    That's one of the problems, it can turn a person into a mer-person you know. I believe that overdosing on the spice is basically a metaphor for heroine addiction as Herbert intended.
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby merkin muffley » 13 Nov 2010 11:47

    HarryCanyon wrote:it can turn a person into a mer-person you know


    Melgenge can turn a person into a merkin-person.
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby lotek » 13 Nov 2010 15:42

    or maybe they're all deformed by holding back the melange farts for too long, the bloating just got a bit out of hand ?

    And melgenge might be a metaphor for heroin but mélange is a metaphor for oil...

    You don't overdose the spice you die of withdrawal(heroin is the opposite)
    (before you try to put in the death of the failed KHs as an excuse to your theory, they don't use mélange they use the Water of Life, a very different drug, and it's not the overdose that kills)

    So now we got this out of the way maybe we can talk of the subject this post was created for ?
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby inhuien » 14 Nov 2010 08:52

    lotek wrote:(before you try to put in the death of the failed KHs as an excuse to your theory, they don't use mélange they use the Water of Life, a very different drug, and it's not the overdose that kills)

    In DUNE Frank wrote:"Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many men
    have tried the drug . . . so many, but none has succeeded."
    "They tried and failed, all of them?"
    "Oh, no." She shook her head. "They tried and died."

    The failed candidate Kwisatz Haderach's would not have used WoL, IMO they'd have been given whatever the BG RM candidates were administered prior to Jessica and Paul's use of the WoL.
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Nov 2010 10:37

    inhuien wrote:
    lotek wrote:(before you try to put in the death of the failed KHs as an excuse to your theory, they don't use mélange they use the Water of Life, a very different drug, and it's not the overdose that kills)

    In DUNE Frank wrote:"Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many men
    have tried the drug . . . so many, but none has succeeded."
    "They tried and failed, all of them?"
    "Oh, no." She shook her head. "They tried and died."

    The failed candidate Kwisatz Haderach's would not have used WoL, IMO they'd have been given whatever the BG RM candidates were administered prior to Jessica and Paul's use of the WoL.


    Rossak Poison or Spice Liquor.
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Nov 2010 00:34

    Use of spice was a metaphor for use of oil.
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby SandRider » 15 Nov 2010 00:51

    spinrad thinks it was also LSD ...
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    Re: Origins and Nature of Navigator "Deformities"

    Postby lotek » 15 Nov 2010 16:26

    Now I wonder what made him think that

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    inhuien wrote:
    lotek wrote:(before you try to put in the death of the failed KHs as an excuse to your theory, they don't use mélange they use the Water of Life, a very different drug, and it's not the overdose that kills)

    In DUNE Frank wrote:"Yes, the one who can be many places at once: the Kwisatz Haderach. Many men
    have tried the drug . . . so many, but none has succeeded."
    "They tried and failed, all of them?"
    "Oh, no." She shook her head. "They tried and died."

    The failed candidate Kwisatz Haderach's would not have used WoL, IMO they'd have been given whatever the BG RM candidates were administered prior to Jessica and Paul's use of the WoL.


    good point, I was a bit too quick there and in my mind I just used WoL as a generic term for all drugs used...
    In fact that prompts a question and another post.
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