Cultures in the duniverse


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Lisan Al-Gaib
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Post by Lisan Al-Gaib »

Freakzilla wrote:
Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:That's why I'm thinking of becoming black. The government benifits alone make it worth it.

<~~~ I already have a fro.

My wife is already part black, her family is from Sicily.
Sorry, but what Italian Sicilians have to do your black people? I know they have curling hair and a skin color more dark than white people, but thats not necessary direct related to black origins (I can be wrong).
It's a result of the Mores (Africans) invading Sicily. They changed the gene pool.
Thanks for the answer, freak!
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SandChigger
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Post by SandChigger »

Um...try "Moors".

And try "African/Arab mix".

Sheesh.
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moreh_yeladim
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Post by moreh_yeladim »

SandChigger wrote:Falling birth rates, aging and shrinking population.

They're in the same boat with us, watching the oncoming brown tsunami. ;)
Given our birth-rate, I wouldn't really count us as watching a brown tsunami. Particularly given the Mizrachim.
Last edited by moreh_yeladim on 07 Oct 2008 16:06, edited 1 time in total.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

moreh_yeladim wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Falling birth rates, aging and shrinking population.

They're in the same boat with us, watching the oncoming brown tsunami. ;)
Given our birthright, I wouldn't really count us as watching a brown tsunami. Particularly given the Mizrachim.
Birthright or birth rate? If the first then what are you talking about exactly? I'm a wee bit lost.
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moreh_yeladim
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Post by moreh_yeladim »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Falling birth rates, aging and shrinking population.

They're in the same boat with us, watching the oncoming brown tsunami. ;)
Given our birthright, I wouldn't really count us as watching a brown tsunami. Particularly given the Mizrachim.
Birthright or birth rate? If the first then what are you talking about exactly? I'm a wee bit lost.
Meant to type birth rate, mispronounced it in my head due to reading something on another site with an accent. Going back to fix it now.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

moreh_yeladim wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
moreh_yeladim wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Falling birth rates, aging and shrinking population.

They're in the same boat with us, watching the oncoming brown tsunami. ;)
Given our birthright, I wouldn't really count us as watching a brown tsunami. Particularly given the Mizrachim.
Birthright or birth rate? If the first then what are you talking about exactly? I'm a wee bit lost.
Meant to type birth rate, mispronounced it in my head due to reading something on another site with an accent. Going back to fix it now.
That's what I figured. What's the Mizrachim?
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Ghost
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Post by Ghost »

Mizrachim, is the hebrew word for Egypt.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

So... "Given our birth rate, I wouldn't really count us as watching a brown tsunami. Particularly given the Mizrachim(Egypt)."

Are there any other meanings because that doesn't make any sense. Maybe Egyptians? I still don't know what that would mean. Moreh - come back and expain this to me!

EDIT: nevermind this post, I was typing at the same time as Moreh.
Last edited by A Thing of Eternity on 07 Oct 2008 16:24, edited 2 times in total.
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moreh_yeladim
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Post by moreh_yeladim »

Ghost wrote:Mizrachim, is the hebrew word for Egypt.
No, not even slightly. "Mitzrayim", spelled מיצריים, is the Hebrew word for Egypt. Mizrachim, aka Mizrachi Jews, are Jewish people whose Diasporan descent traces back through Middle Eastern countries for a couple of millenia instead of through Eastern Europe (Ashkenazim) or through the Mediterranean area (Sfardim, mostly Spain and Turkey). Mizrachim are very obviously "brown", and to the untrained eye can be mistaken for Arabs or Persians.

Point is that Jews don't belong to one "race", inasmuch as race has any proper meaning anymore.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

moreh_yeladim wrote:
Ghost wrote:Mizrachim, is the hebrew word for Egypt.
No, not even slightly. "Mitzrayim", spelled מיצריים, is the Hebrew word for Egypt. Mizrachim, aka Mizrachi Jews, are Jewish people whose Diasporan descent traces back through Middle Eastern countries for a couple of millenia instead of through Eastern Europe (Ashkenazim) or through the Mediterranean area (Sfardim, mostly Spain and Turkey). Mizrachim are very obviously "brown", and to the untrained eye can be mistaken for Arabs or Persians.

Point is that Jews don't belong to one "race", inasmuch as race has any proper meaning anymore.
Thanks.
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Post by Ghost »

moreh_yeladim wrote:
Ghost wrote:Mizrachim, is the hebrew word for Egypt.
No, not even slightly. "Mitzrayim", spelled מיצריים, is the Hebrew word for Egypt. Mizrachim, aka Mizrachi Jews, are Jewish people whose Diasporan descent traces back through Middle Eastern countries for a couple of millenia instead of through Eastern Europe (Ashkenazim) or through the Mediterranean area (Sfardim, mostly Spain and Turkey). Mizrachim are very obviously "brown", and to the untrained eye can be mistaken for Arabs or Persians.

Point is that Jews don't belong to one "race", inasmuch as race has any proper meaning anymore.
Thanks, didn't knew how Mitzraym was spelled in english.
So what yo wrote previoulsy shoulld be read as Mizrajim (fonetic)
Zak
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Post by Zak »

SandChigger wrote:The Ixian thing is in Children of Dune:
Muad'Dib's religion had another name now; it was Shien-san-Shao, an Ixian label which designated the intensity and insanity of those who thought they could bring the universe to paradise at the point of a crysknife. But that too would change as lx had changed. For they were merely the ninth planet of their sun, and had even forgotten the language which had given them their name.
The phrase looks like Chinese, but I haven't bothered to try to decipher what it might be based on. (Because without the original characters, it could be a lot of things; the romanization FH used isn't a standard one. In modern pinyin it would probably be Xian-san-Shao.

At first I thought it was Wade-Giles, but then I checked the conversion tables and couldn't find "Shien." In the 60's Wade-Giles was pretty standard in western writing so that would make the most sense to me. Then again how do we know it's Mandarin? It could be Romanization of any "dialect." Without the tones and given the odd capitalization, we don't have much to go on.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by SandChigger »

We don't indeed.

It may not be Chinese (in any dialect) or even based on anything real. Or FH may have subtly changed something in the same way he did Arabic when making his Fremen language.

A continuing puzzler.... :)
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Post by A Little Galach »

SandChigger wrote:Um...try "Moors".

And try "African/Arab mix".

Sheesh.
It's "Moops."

I'm a history guy, I would have liked to have learned more about the rest of the Duniverse and tried to fill in some of the blanks myself. But I think FH did a tremendous job mixing the cultures of Earth and leaving some cultures (race, religion, etc) more intact than others.

That's another reason I was disapponted to learn that the "Agemmenon" in someone's (Alia?Leto?) OM was depicted as a brain-in-a-jar cyborg. Retarded.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by SandChigger »

Only a very careless reader could ever mistake the mentions of Agamemnon in the real Dune books to be referring to the "Vat Brat" Titan.

FH made it sufficiently clear that he was talking about the old Greek.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:Only a very careless reader could ever mistake the mentions of Agamemnon in the real Dune books to be referring to the "Vat Brat" Titan.

FH made it sufficiently clear that he was talking about the old Greek.
I could buy it as a mistake from careless reading. The hacks seem like they maybe read Dune a few times collectively but just scanned the latter books just to say they read them.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by reverendmotherQ. »

SandChigger wrote:Only a very careless reader could ever mistake the mentions of Agamemnon in the real Dune books to be referring to the "Vat Brat" Titan.

FH made it sufficiently clear that he was talking about the old Greek.
BINGO! Thats what I thought all along. Mwhaha. Take that KJA!
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by A Little Galach »

SandChigger wrote:Only a very careless reader could ever mistake the mentions of Agamemnon in the real Dune books to be referring to the "Vat Brat" Titan.

FH made it sufficiently clear that he was talking about the old Greek.

I'm thinking that if it was actually supposed to be a cyborg involved in the downfall of man, the rise of machines and the Butlerian Jihad, that maybe Frank would have mentioned something about it in 6 books. Or at least the 4 that depict males with OM and therefore direct knowledge of him. Or the one that has the male emperor with OM cozying up to Ix and their machines.

Retarded and self-serving.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by Freakzilla »

A Little Galach wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Only a very careless reader could ever mistake the mentions of Agamemnon in the real Dune books to be referring to the "Vat Brat" Titan.

FH made it sufficiently clear that he was talking about the old Greek.

I'm thinking that if it was actually supposed to be a cyborg involved in the downfall of man, the rise of machines and the Butlerian Jihad, that maybe Frank would have mentioned something about it in 6 books. Or at least the 4 that depict males with OM and therefore direct knowledge of him. Or the one that has the male emperor with OM cozying up to Ix and their machines.

Retarded and self-serving.
The females with OM would have memories of his mother/wife/daughter, too.
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by MrFlibble »

SandChigger wrote:Only a very careless reader could ever mistake the mentions of Agamemnon in the real Dune books to be referring to the "Vat Brat" Titan.

FH made it sufficiently clear that he was talking about the old Greek.
Heh, what could be a more direct indication than calling the main characters "Atreides"? Although I think KJA/BH played along in this matter for a while (at least, in the very first prequel book, but I can't be sure)...
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by SandChigger »

The performance of the play in House Atrocious? ;)
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by MrFlibble »

Yep, that's it. "Look at those guys, Letoey.Those were some great ancestors of yours, who lived a long time ago" - "I wanna be like 'em when I grow up, Daddy!" or something along those lines. But that was during that short period of time they still pretended they were continuing the legacy :P
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by Kensai »

Well the Imperium and Landsraad seems very Europeon to me. However I heard that Frank based the Imperium of the Ottoman Empire. Obviously the Freemen and Tielaxu are based on Islamic history and society, specifically the Arabs. I think Frank got ideas from cultures all over the world, but he was a bit more sutble about it. For example, the Saudukar Warrior Religion and ideology sounds a LOT like Japanese Bushido, but they have no overt Japanese themes. I mean how easy would it have been to have them as "Samurai in space"?

I think Frank intentionally diluted any overt cultural allusions in the Imperium to ephmasize the fact that it is a few thousand years in the futre and mankind has changed, evolved and intermingled. The Freeman are the most intact culture (if you don't count the Jews in CHD) but even they have become schismatic (Zensuni- Zen Buddhism and Suni Islam).

Other less obvious examples are Prana Bindu, which apears to have roots in Tai Chi (Chinese) and Yoga (Indian). You could even argue that some of Leto II's regime bears resemblence to Korean Juche ideology and the People's Republic of China (cult of personality, state controll of commerce, state controlled/rewritten history).
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by Robspierre »

The Imperium does have the feel of the Ottoman Empire while the Landsraad resembles Venice and the intrigues of the various merchant families.

There is a "renaissance" period feel to the Dune universe in the first three novels.

Rob
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Re: Cultures in the duniverse

Post by MrFlibble »

Robspierre wrote:There is a "renaissance" period feel to the Dune universe in the first three novels.

Rob
Yes, I think both Lynch and the guy who made the miniseries tried to make the visuals of their respective works in a style evocative of the Renaissance - and with drastically different results, I should add :D
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