Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

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usully
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Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

Postby usully » 15 Nov 2015 01:29

How could there have been only 81 Emperors in over 10,000 years? There would have been over 100, had they all reigned 100 years on average.

Only later in the book series is there evidence that humans can live many hundreds of years. There was no evidence of that in Dune. The Appendix say Jessica lived to be about 100 years old.

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Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

Postby georgiedenbro » 15 Nov 2015 04:30

This is an especially good question in light of my theory that Frank originally intended the geriatric spice to be a relatively recent discovery.

Could it be that there were non-Padishah emperors from the Corrino line (whatever that would mean), or that there were intermittent non-Corrinos who temporarily got control of the throne only to lose it back to Corrinos later on?
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Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

Postby Serkanner » 15 Nov 2015 06:39

Or there were just "regular" Emperors before there were Padishah emperors?
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Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

Postby usully » 15 Nov 2015 08:57

I looked for that possibility (that Corrino would sometimes be on an odd the throne) but couldn't fine any evidence of that.

I had looked here:

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/House_Corrino

And here (Battle of Corrin, establishes Imperium, 88 BG):

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_%28Original_Dune%29

However, looking at the details of the DE Timeline today:

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_%28 ... lopedia%29

There seems to have been many more than 81 Emperors. One of them became the first one called Padishah here:

House Of Hajus CorrinoEdit

7426
Fredhrick I al-Hajus becomes Emperor (the first Padishah).[4]

(I had wrongly assumed that no one had bothered to create the whole history of emperors over 10,000 years. My bad!)

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Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

Postby ᴶᵛᵀᴬ » 15 Nov 2015 18:09

usully wrote:I looked for that possibility (that Corrino would sometimes be on an odd the throne) but couldn't fine any evidence of that.

I had looked here:

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/House_Corrino

And here (Battle of Corrin, establishes Imperium, 88 BG):

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_%28Original_Dune%29


Unfortunately, Dune Wikia is not considered a credible source. It's an unreliable concatenation of KJA bullshits and DE phantasmagorias.

http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1723&start=0


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      usully
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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby usully » 15 Nov 2015 20:35

      Makes sense. It seemed as if this probably came from the DE, since it was a full list. I don't have the DE so I can't point you to it.

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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby Freakzilla » 16 Nov 2015 07:40

      georgiedenbro wrote:This is an especially good question in light of my theory that Frank originally intended the geriatric spice to be a relatively recent discovery.

      Could it be that there were non-Padishah emperors from the Corrino line (whatever that would mean), or that there were intermittent non-Corrinos who temporarily got control of the throne only to lose it back to Corrinos later on?


      I've always assumed that the discovery of the spice coincided with the rise of the Spacing Guild (0 BG/AG). This would explain their ascendancy relatively shortly after the Butlerian Jihad (concluded 108 BG). Nobody had computers for navigation but the Guild was able to predict the safe course with prescience through the melange.
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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby georgiedenbro » 16 Nov 2015 09:53

      Freakzilla wrote:of the spice coincided with the rise of the Spacing Guild (0 BG/AG). This would explain their ascendancy relatively shortly after the Butlerian Jihad (concluded 108 BG). Nobody had computers for navigation but the Guild was able to predict the safe course with prescience through the melange.


      Given the last minute edits to Dune it looks like this is the impression we're supposed to get, even though FH didn't quite update every part of the story to correspond. Then again once the Jihad ended everyone would be scrambling to try to achieve navigation without computers and the initial successes at it may have been quite limited. They could have used other drugs for a time, since it would have been too coincidental for the discovery of the spice to come magically right after the Jihad when it was needed. UNLESS we suggest that it was no coincidence; maybe the discovery of spice was the galvanizing force making people realize they could finally do without machines?
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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby Naib » 16 Nov 2015 10:06

      Perhaps the clue comes from the word Padishah. Padishah means great king, so perhaps in earlier times there were a few competing 'empires' in the beginning and when they were finally conquered Corrinos added the word Padishah to their titles.

      There's no historical evidence to support this, I believe, but it makes a certain logical sense.

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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby Freakzilla » 16 Nov 2015 11:54

      georgiedenbro wrote:
      Freakzilla wrote:of the spice coincided with the rise of the Spacing Guild (0 BG/AG). This would explain their ascendancy relatively shortly after the Butlerian Jihad (concluded 108 BG). Nobody had computers for navigation but the Guild was able to predict the safe course with prescience through the melange.


      Given the last minute edits to Dune it looks like this is the impression we're supposed to get, even though FH didn't quite update every part of the story to correspond. Then again once the Jihad ended everyone would be scrambling to try to achieve navigation without computers and the initial successes at it may have been quite limited. They could have used other drugs for a time, since it would have been too coincidental for the discovery of the spice to come magically right after the Jihad when it was needed. UNLESS we suggest that it was no coincidence; maybe the discovery of spice was the galvanizing force making people realize they could finally do without machines?


      Maybe the Guild was already using the spice and their competitors who used computers were put out of business by the jihad?
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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby georgiedenbro » 16 Nov 2015 15:53

      Freakzilla wrote:Maybe the Guild was already using the spice and their competitors who used computers were put out of business by the jihad?


      Oh this is SUCH a beautiful idea and so much in keeping with Dune. If the Guild had the spice it would mean they already had limited prescience and could foresee the results of arranging a monopoly for themselves. Foment a religious revolution, perhaps with the help of the Bene Gesserit or 'sorceresses' or whatever, and watch the pieces fall apart with no infrastructure left standing except you, who now has a galactic monopoly on travel. The BG would therefore have a monopoly on 'intrigue' in the same sense, and we can see this translated into 'modern' times when the Guild's power is the single defining element in the Imperium. It's a political 'tripod' but to me that seems more like propaganda than anything. It's really more like a pyramid scheme where people scramble to curry favor with the Guild and it chooses who wins and loses. That this could have been going on for 10,000 years makes it all the more exciting when Paul unilaterally gives them the finger makes them bow to him.
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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 24 Nov 2015 04:23

      The Guild hasn't been using spice for 10,000 years. Just like the Bene Gesserit, there are other drugs they can use (and did previously use) to achieve their "tricks":

      And he thought then about the Guild -- the force that had specialized for so long that it had become a parasite, unable to exist independently of the life upon which it fed. They had never dared grasp the sword . . . and now they could not grasp it. They might have taken Arrakis when they realized the error of specializing on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators. They could have done this, lived their glorious day and died. Instead, they'd existed from moment to moment, hoping the seas in which they swam might produce a new host when the old one died.


      And we know the spice wasn't discovered (at least not officially) before the founding of the Empire:

      He thought of the filmbook Yueh had shown him--"Arrakis: His Imperial Majesty's Desert Botanical Testing Station." It was an old filmbook from before discovery of the spice.

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      Re: Shadam IV = 81st Padishah Emperor

      Postby georgiedenbro » 24 Nov 2015 10:23

      There's another thread about when the spice was discovered. The conclusion was something to the effect that the passage about the filmbook from before the time of the spice is a remnant of an earlier draft of the book wherein the spice was a discovery around 100-200 years prior to Dune. Some of us guess that FH changed it around and made the time of its discovery unknown, but some parts of Dune still allude to the discovery as being very recent. In my imagination I prefer to think of spice as not having been around very long, but in the spirit of text analysis I also like to map out interpretations of the story where it might have been around for a very long time. There are other drugs, yes; we just don't know when the spice was discovered officially.
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