Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

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Not_Your_Friend
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Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Not_Your_Friend » 06 Jul 2011 10:22

Just as Shaddam IV transferred the fiefdom of Arrakis from Harkonnen to Atreides, why did he not legally transfer it back after the “death” of House Atreides?

It may not have made much of an actual difference when Muad’Dib’s Fremen attack and force a showdown, but Paul was talking a bit about his being the legal duke at the end of the book.

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jul 2011 18:06

What makes you think he didn't? He didn't know Paul was alive.
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Not_Your_Friend » 06 Jul 2011 18:52

Paul did mention once or twice that he was still the legal Duke of Arrakis, and with all the raids and spies he ought to know.

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Ampoliros » 06 Jul 2011 18:57

He never officially gave the fief back to the Harkonnens, they took it by force (with his blessing). So Paul was still the 'legal' Duke since no one bothered to officially change the claim. Probably a by-law anyway where something taken by force can legally be taken back, hence the need to completely eradicate the Original House.
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Not_Your_Friend » 06 Jul 2011 19:06

I think that flies. Essentially there's no legal transfers because House Harkonnen simply takes the fief and kills the house, Shaddam then can't do a legal transfer even if he wanted to when Paul shows up again because the Landsraad would be steamed, and the War of Assassins and Kanly and the fact that House Atreides still exists insure that Paul can just take the fief back again. Yes?

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jul 2011 21:18

Not_Your_Friend wrote:I think that flies. Essentially there's no legal transfers because House Harkonnen simply takes the fief and kills the house, Shaddam then can't do a legal transfer even if he wanted to when Paul shows up again because the Landsraad would be steamed, and the War of Assassins and Kanly and the fact that House Atreides still exists insure that Paul can just take the fief back again. Yes?


I think it meant Paul could make a claim to it, which he did, after smashing the Harkonnens AND Sardaukar.
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby SandRider » 06 Jul 2011 21:44

seems like I usta think I had that one figgered out ... I saw the post earlier this afternoon, right after I came in from the motherfucking
inferno that is Outside ... all of the above reasonings seem reasonable, but there's something missing I am now too drunk to put my
finger on ... and the answer can be summed-up and expressed more succinctly (& eloquently, but I'll need another-two drinks first ...)
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jul 2011 21:52

I'll drink to that!
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Hadi Benotto » 07 Jul 2011 03:16

Clean up on aisle five! Could one of our faithful administrators please eradicate the Sadur-bot and please check the other three posts it's made? They're insidious. They typically have spam generators broken up into small pieces located throughout their body which they assemble to use later. They also have shigawire coils in their hair, so you'll have to shave them bald. Yes... ALL THEIR HAIR. And just when you think you've found everything, check'em thrice more! Sneaky bastards!
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Omphalos » 07 Jul 2011 06:12

Bitch is gone.

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Superdog » 07 Jul 2011 21:18

Since Harkonnen attacked Atriedes, Atriedes could legally attack them back, no? And since the house wasn't legally abolished or anything, technically Paul could "vassalize" all the Fremen into Atriedes retainers and everything he does to fight the Harkonnen can be legal. I think.

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby D Pope » 07 Jul 2011 21:52

There's got to be something we're missing here. It seems that a change of fief occurs with some regularity- Judge of the Change, obeying the forms- society in the Million Worlds can't be so violent that it's acceptable to simply take what you, a great house, want.

Wasn't there a line about giving Arrakis to the Harkonnens to "end all dispute?"
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Jul 2011 09:56

It's a moot point, by the time the emperor realizes that there is still an Atreides alive, said Atreides was riding rough shod over his Sardaukar. Paul kills all the remaining Harkonnens on Arrakis and forces the emperor to abdicate. Paul says, "It's ALL mine!".

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Omphalos » 08 Jul 2011 13:24

Fiefs traditionally were subject to a different set of laws then what applied to chattels. Originally the king had a right to reclaim a fief upon the death of the vassal (or over-lord, whatever the case) but over time fiefs became inheritable as a matter of right. Shaddam probably had no right to reclaim the fief because the hiers of the Duke were not proven dead, for example, with the presentation of a body. That is probably what Paul is referring to; the lack of the condition precedent to the emperor's right to legally reclaim Arrakis from the Atreides family.

It works different than a contract too. Shaddam gave the Atreides the fief in agreement that the Atreides would pay a share of earnings, provide some troops for Shaddam's use, and probably for some spice. But because fiefs are subject to more complex laws than that strictly of contract or inheritance, the failure of that manner of consideration (because of the destruction of the entire House Atreides) the "House" still had a legal claim simply because Paul's (and I imagine Jessica's bodies) had not been presented yet.

I really think it's that simple

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Setzer » 05 Sep 2011 12:07

From what I understand, the Harkonnens held Arrakis as a sub-fief after their assault on Arrakis. So while they still technically held Giedi Prime, Arrakis was also theirs.

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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Sep 2011 11:22

I believe the Harkonnens always held Arrakis as a sub-fief because they were not a Royal House and had a CHOAM contract to mine the spice.
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Re: Legality of the fiefdom of Arrakis

Postby georgiedenbro » 06 Aug 2014 15:48

Freakzilla wrote:I believe the Harkonnens always held Arrakis as a sub-fief because they were not a Royal House and had a CHOAM contract to mine the spice.


For what it's worth, The Baron comments to Feyd that one of the things he expects to come of the pact with the Emperor is a CHOAM Directorship. We'll probably never know the relationship between having a directorship and being considered a Great House, but certainly the Baron appeared to feel that having a directorship was not only a way to increase his spice earnings but also a way to further legitimize his house (like what Michael tries in the Godfather series). I think the Baron's basic goals going into the compact were to achieve Great House status in his lifetime, and then to make way for Feyd to become Emperor after he retired (or died). Only in the later scene between The Baron and Thufir does the thought occur to him that he might have some chance at becoming Emperor himself, or of seeing Feyd as Emperor in his lifetime.
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