Noble Houses of Dune

Image
    The Great Houses which comprise the governing body of the Empire

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

georgiedenbro
Posts: 755
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby georgiedenbro » 09 Feb 2015 00:06

JasonJD48 wrote:Certainly, but ultimately we still haven't answered what that makes Fenring. Did he get his title by having some distant relation to the royal house, or because of financial wealth? Neither is really indicated to my recollection. Do he and his wife constitute a House? he's not indicated to have any properties or great wealth. However if I recall correctly, he does end up governing Caladan between the time the Atreides take Arrakis and when Paul overthrows Shaddam and Jessica goes back there, so who knows.


Here you go:

Dune: Appendix IV wrote:COUNT HASIMIR FENRING (10,133-10,225)
A distaff cousin of House Corrino, he was a childhood companion of Shaddam IV.
(The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX.) All
accounts agree that Fenring was the closest friend Shaddam IV possessed. The
Imperial chores carried out by Count Fenring included that of Imperial Agent on
Arrakis during the Harkonnen regime there and later Siridar-Absentia of Caladan.
He joined Shaddam IV in retirement on Salusa Secundus.


He was by birth a noble, and in practice probably more influential than any House Major (other than Atreides by the time of Dune). Money probably means very little to Fenring, if I judge him correctly.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

User avatar
JasonJD48
Posts: 76
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 19:26
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby JasonJD48 » 09 Feb 2015 20:17

georgiedenbro wrote:
JasonJD48 wrote:Certainly, but ultimately we still haven't answered what that makes Fenring. Did he get his title by having some distant relation to the royal house, or because of financial wealth? Neither is really indicated to my recollection. Do he and his wife constitute a House? he's not indicated to have any properties or great wealth. However if I recall correctly, he does end up governing Caladan between the time the Atreides take Arrakis and when Paul overthrows Shaddam and Jessica goes back there, so who knows.


Here you go:

Dune: Appendix IV wrote:COUNT HASIMIR FENRING (10,133-10,225)
A distaff cousin of House Corrino, he was a childhood companion of Shaddam IV.
(The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX.) All
accounts agree that Fenring was the closest friend Shaddam IV possessed. The
Imperial chores carried out by Count Fenring included that of Imperial Agent on
Arrakis during the Harkonnen regime there and later Siridar-Absentia of Caladan.
He joined Shaddam IV in retirement on Salusa Secundus.


He was by birth a noble, and in practice probably more influential than any House Major (other than Atreides by the time of Dune). Money probably means very little to Fenring, if I judge him correctly.


So given he was Shaddam's cousin and only seemed to act as his agent, I would just say he's part of House Corrino. I have no doubt of his considerable influence and I also agree he didn't seem to be interested in money.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Arthur C. Clarke

georgiedenbro
Posts: 755
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby georgiedenbro » 09 Feb 2015 21:02

JasonJD48 wrote:So given he was Shaddam's cousin and only seemed to act as his agent, I would just say he's part of House Corrino. I have no doubt of his considerable influence and I also agree he didn't seem to be interested in money.


"Distaff" can be a remote relation, and since the Atreides were distaff relations also and weren't part of House Corrino, it seems that a Great House is more or less restricted to the immediate family unit within 2-3 generations. If a female child of a noble house marries into another House it probably begins a distaff line, and if a male child who isn't an heir marries into another House then he is probably forced to adopt a new name to show the House membership.

User avatar
JasonJD48
Posts: 76
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 19:26
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby JasonJD48 » 09 Feb 2015 21:25

georgiedenbro wrote:
JasonJD48 wrote:So given he was Shaddam's cousin and only seemed to act as his agent, I would just say he's part of House Corrino. I have no doubt of his considerable influence and I also agree he didn't seem to be interested in money.


"Distaff" can be a remote relation, and since the Atreides were distaff relations also and weren't part of House Corrino, it seems that a Great House is more or less restricted to the immediate family unit within 2-3 generations. If a female child of a noble house marries into another House it probably begins a distaff line, and if a male child who isn't an heir marries into another House then he is probably forced to adopt a new name to show the House membership.


The Atreides were related, hence his status as Duke, which is usually considered closer to the royal house than any other noble title (excepting Archduke for those systems that have it). However, as noted earlier, such relation isn't required, as in the case of House Harkonnen that earned their titles with money (he's a Baron, the lowest or most distant in most systems). I think the main factor for me is that he doesn't act in his own interest, but in Shaddams.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Arthur C. Clarke

User avatar
Naïve mind
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Aug 2012 05:58

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby Naïve mind » 10 Feb 2015 01:01

... The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX ...


:mrgreen:

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2828
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 10 Feb 2015 15:27

Naïve mind wrote:
... The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX ...


:mrgreen:


Actually, shouldn't this be added to the list of inconsistencies?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

georgiedenbro
Posts: 755
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Feb 2015 16:17

Serkanner wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:
... The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX ...


:mrgreen:


Actually, shouldn't this be added to the list of inconsistencies?


It's like saying that poor taste in art should be added to the list of Hitler's flaws.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2828
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 10 Feb 2015 16:20

georgiedenbro wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:
... The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX ...


:mrgreen:


Actually, shouldn't this be added to the list of inconsistencies?


It's like saying that poor taste in art should be added to the list of Hitler's flaws.


... :think:

:clap:
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
JasonJD48
Posts: 76
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 19:26
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby JasonJD48 » 10 Feb 2015 22:31

Serkanner wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:
... The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX ...


:mrgreen:


Actually, shouldn't this be added to the list of inconsistencies?


Do you mean prequel inconsistencies? I thought in the prequels Fenring was the one who poisoned Elrood, one of the few things they got right. But my memory may be hazy and I don't care enough to subject myself to re-reading it.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Arthur C. Clarke

User avatar
Naïve mind
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Aug 2012 05:58

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby Naïve mind » 11 Feb 2015 00:33

I'm just smiling at the thought of calling the prequels the frequently discredited pirate history of Corrino. If they can suggest Dune is an inaccurate in-universe account of what really happened, what's to prevent us from assigning a similar snipe to Frank posthumously?

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2828
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 12 Feb 2015 07:16

JasonJD48 wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:
... The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX ...


:mrgreen:


Actually, shouldn't this be added to the list of inconsistencies?


Do you mean prequel inconsistencies? I thought in the prequels Fenring was the one who poisoned Elrood, one of the few things they got right. But my memory may be hazy and I don't care enough to subject myself to re-reading it.


Yeah, I thought it was Shaddam, but now realize Fenring was probably involved as well. I can also not be bothered to check it.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
JasonJD48
Posts: 76
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 19:26
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby JasonJD48 » 13 Feb 2015 18:52

Serkanner wrote:
JasonJD48 wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:
... The frequently discredited Pirate History of Corrino related the curious story
that Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky which disposed of Elrood IX ...


:mrgreen:


Actually, shouldn't this be added to the list of inconsistencies?


Do you mean prequel inconsistencies? I thought in the prequels Fenring was the one who poisoned Elrood, one of the few things they got right. But my memory may be hazy and I don't care enough to subject myself to re-reading it.


Yeah, I thought it was Shaddam, but now realize Fenring was probably involved as well. I can also not be bothered to check it.


It could very well be that my mind is mixing the appendix with the colon... I mean prequels, but I thought while Shaddam was the one who wanted his father out of the way, it was Fenring that carried it out.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Arthur C. Clarke

georgiedenbro
Posts: 755
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby georgiedenbro » 13 Feb 2015 22:23

JasonJD48 wrote:It could very well be that my mind is mixing the appendix with the colon... I mean prequels, but I thought while Shaddam was the one who wanted his father out of the way, it was Fenring that carried it out.


From Dune we can tell that Shaddam and Fenring have some sort of close relationship, and that Fenring has influence and powers beyond what it first seems like. He seems to be portrayed as desiring to be seen as Shaddam's lackey, when in fact he has much more independent agency than that. I almost get the sense that Shaddam and Fenring are equals and work as a team, and unlike in Lynch's movie, Dune portrays Shaddam as being very formidable. This is in contrast to the House books, though, where Fenring seems more to be like....uggghh....seems more to be like....GHARGH.....seems....





....some force prevents me discussing those books, I am sorry....
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

User avatar
JasonJD48
Posts: 76
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 19:26
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby JasonJD48 » 13 Feb 2015 22:55

georgiedenbro wrote:
JasonJD48 wrote:It could very well be that my mind is mixing the appendix with the colon... I mean prequels, but I thought while Shaddam was the one who wanted his father out of the way, it was Fenring that carried it out.


From Dune we can tell that Shaddam and Fenring have some sort of close relationship, and that Fenring has influence and powers beyond what it first seems like. He seems to be portrayed as desiring to be seen as Shaddam's lackey, when in fact he has much more independent agency than that. I almost get the sense that Shaddam and Fenring are equals and work as a team, and unlike in Lynch's movie, Dune portrays Shaddam as being very formidable. This is in contrast to the House books, though, where Fenring seems more to be like....uggghh....seems more to be like....GHARGH.....seems....


....some force prevents me discussing those books, I am sorry....


Well everyone was kinda Flanderized in the prequels.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Arthur C. Clarke

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2828
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 14 Feb 2015 07:53

JasonJD48 wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
JasonJD48 wrote:It could very well be that my mind is mixing the appendix with the colon... I mean prequels, but I thought while Shaddam was the one who wanted his father out of the way, it was Fenring that carried it out.


From Dune we can tell that Shaddam and Fenring have some sort of close relationship, and that Fenring has influence and powers beyond what it first seems like. He seems to be portrayed as desiring to be seen as Shaddam's lackey, when in fact he has much more independent agency than that. I almost get the sense that Shaddam and Fenring are equals and work as a team, and unlike in Lynch's movie, Dune portrays Shaddam as being very formidable. This is in contrast to the House books, though, where Fenring seems more to be like....uggghh....seems more to be like....GHARGH.....seems....


....some force prevents me discussing those books, I am sorry....


Well everyone was kinda Flanderized in the prequels.


Flanderized ... learned a new word today :D
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby lotek » 16 Feb 2015 06:07

Yeah, they've all got knitted sweaters and a sneaky little moustache :)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
machinor
Posts: 16
Joined: 09 Dec 2015 18:53

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby machinor » 09 Dec 2015 20:33

Ok, I don't really know if this fits in here, but one of the most brilliant ideas of the Dune Encyclopedia, in my mind, was that if an Atreides and a Harkonnen took part in the Battle of Corrin (and probably on the side of House Corrino since they... you know... still exist), then Atreides and Harkonnen are both descendants of Sardaukar.
There are of course various other possibilities that do not necessitate them being Sardaukar but the thought I found to be quite interesting.
"Oh, the devil will find work for idle hands to do."

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby D Pope » 09 Dec 2015 22:35

machinor wrote: ...then Atreides and Harkonnen are both descendants of Sardaukar.
There are of course various other possibilities that do not necessitate them
being Sardaukar but the thought I found to be quite interesting
.

How do you figure?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

User avatar
machinor
Posts: 16
Joined: 09 Dec 2015 18:53

Re: Noble Houses of Dune

Postby machinor » 13 Dec 2015 10:21

Well, as I said, it's an idea the Dune Ecyclopedia brought up or heavily implies (it's been quite a while since I read that so I could be grossly mistaken).
I think their reasoning is simply that since Atreides and Harkonnen took part in the Battle of Corrin and they obviously fought on the Emperor's side, they were Sardaukar, because the Emperor's troops were the Sardaukar.

EDIT:
Ok I just looked it up. In the DE Abulurd Harkonnen was a Colonel Bashar of the Sardaukar that was later stripped of all titles because of cowardice. The first Atreides was a Sardaukar on one of the other spaceships who was later ennobled.
"Oh, the devil will find work for idle hands to do."


Return to “˱”