Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

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Postby SandRider » 09 Nov 2008 22:17

I'm smellin' some Jesuit on him, too.
Did you go to Catholic schools, Boba ?
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Postby SandChigger » 09 Nov 2008 22:57

Or "either sex at will" is the explanation of what Jadacha brings to it.

If you're happier thinking of planets and peoples, be my guest.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 23:16

SandRider wrote:I'm smellin' some Jesuit on him, too.
Did you go to Catholic schools, Boba ?

High school. Jesuit indeed. What tipped you off?
SandChigger wrote:Or "either sex at will" is the explanation of what Jadacha brings to it.

Which would mean that Scytale is being redundant. The word has no basis in any language we know of to have anything to do with hermaphrodism or being a changeling, so that he brings it up at least means that the word "Jadacha" calls to mind an association with something relevant that would help his listeners understand him. "Jadacha" seems to imply what he says, yes, but the word itself is mysterious.
SandChigger wrote:If you're happier thinking of planets and peoples, be my guest.

I'm offering it as a possible explanation. Yours is possible, too. Neither are airtight.
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Postby SandRider » 09 Nov 2008 23:20

BobaGodot wrote:
SandRider wrote:
I'm smellin' some Jesuit on him, too.
Did you go to Catholic schools, Boba ?

High school. Jesuit indeed. What tipped you off?


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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 23:23

SandRider wrote:
BobaGodot wrote:
SandRider wrote:
I'm smellin' some Jesuit on him, too.
Did you go to Catholic schools, Boba ?

High school. Jesuit indeed. What tipped you off?


This ain't my first rodeo .....

Nothing more specific? lol
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 10 Nov 2008 10:31

Even if the masters are wrong, their intent is clear based on what they believe to be true, which is a big change from sending a Face Dancer to be a member of an elaborate assassination conspiracy.
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Postby inhuien » 11 Nov 2008 05:16

EsperandoAGodot wrote:Even if the masters are wrong, their intent is clear based on what they believe to be true, which is a big change from sending a Face Dancer to be a member of an elaborate assassination conspiracy.


I must be having an attack of the thick cause I've read what you wrote there 3 times and I'm still unsure of your meaning.

That being the case however it is completely logical for a Face Dancer to be part of the conspiracy as changes to identity were essential to the plot. But that wasn't the point I wanted to make and it half-baked.

Since when does compliance, in the case of to their Masters, equal stupidity. And why would the Masters, Genetic uber bodkins, create a blunt tool.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 11 Nov 2008 10:12

Pardon that I don't have all my Dune here with me at college, but isn't the fact that they gain identity and independence through assuming many other identities a large part of what Daniel and Marty talk about at the end of Chapterhouse? That is, that they don't at first have either, and that the Tleilaxu don't foresee their gaining either as a consequence of what the Face Dancers are designed to do. IIRC that's not the first time a Face Dancers' lack of agency in its "relaxed" state is touched upon in the novel. On the other hand, Scytale is not merely a tool, but an active, planning conspirator that is often acting as himself.

Or maybe I'm just taking crazy pills, which is entirely possible.
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Postby Freakzilla » 11 Nov 2008 11:29

Face Dancers absorbing personas is a latter developement in the series and isn't mentioned in the early books. Scytale had to act his part. Even though the late model or New Face Dancers (NFD, not to be confused with SFD) absorb their victem's persona, I'm sure they have a basic training as well as advanced mission specific training.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 11 Nov 2008 11:51

More important, though, is the implication in those quotes by Daniel and Marty - and I'm pretty sure it's outright stated in HoD and C: D - that the latter day Face Dancers are engineered to have no independence or identity.

Scytale very much has an identity.
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Postby Freakzilla » 11 Nov 2008 12:02

EsperandoAGodot wrote:More important, though, is the implication in those quotes by Daniel and Marty - and I'm pretty sure it's outright stated in HoD and C: D - that the latter day Face Dancers are engineered to have no independence or identity.


No, this is shown by Waff's suprise when his Face Dancer believes himself to actully be Rakian High Priest Tuek, whos persona it had absorbed.

Scytale very much has an identity.


Those are an different version of Face Dancer. I think the FD role changed with the developement of the technology. Durring Scytale's era, he had to act his part which requires much more skill than just absorbing a persona. I think the later were a one use weapon, thrown away after they had absorbed a persona and mission completed, where Scytale, who didn't absorb personas, could do multiple missions.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 11 Nov 2008 12:36

Yeah, that's what I meant
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Postby Frybread » 22 Nov 2008 13:25

I don't know if it was ever mentioned in the books or discussed here, but do Face Dancers age and die?

I am curious because while they are a huge threat to mankind, particularly the New Face Dancers like Marty and Daniel, they are sterile and would not really pose that big of a long-term threat if they die of old age and cannot reproduce.

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Postby SandChigger » 24 Nov 2008 10:46

Or would it merely emulate that aging process? ;)

(Um...Scytale is a Master, not an NFD or SFD, right?)
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Postby Frybread » 26 Nov 2008 17:14

SandChigger wrote:Or would it merely emulate that aging process? ;)

(Um...Scytale is a Master, not an NFD or SFD, right?)


Perhaps that's it. So you could have a NFD or SFD playing a feeble, old woman to catch someone off guard and then take them out with his normal strength and speed.

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby Redstar » 11 Sep 2009 06:33

The Face Dancers are the ultimate ninja.

Note that the modern perception of a ninja in full black garb actually comes from the standard practice in Japanese theatre of stage hands wearing the same black costume... This costume was a signal to the audience that they were "invisible" and to be ignored. Imagine the surprise in one particular showing when one of these "invisible" stagehands crept up behind an actor and stabbed him to death. No one expected it.

Considering the Face Dancers' role (and origins?) as actors/performers, it's a pretty cool real-life comparison.

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby inhuien » 11 Sep 2009 07:07

So would that make the Fremen the ultimate Pirates? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby Redstar » 11 Sep 2009 07:13

inhuien wrote:So would that make the Fremen the ultimate Pirates? :lol: :lol:

Cool

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby Ampoliros » 11 Sep 2009 10:27

When was the last time you saw Face Dancers with wenches?
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby SandRider » 11 Sep 2009 12:14

Redstar wrote:Note that the modern perception of a ninja in full black garb actually comes from the standard practice in Japanese theatre of stage hands wearing the same black costume... This costume was a signal to the audience that they were "invisible" and to be ignored. Imagine the surprise in one particular showing when one of these "invisible" stagehands crept up behind an actor and stabbed him to death. No one expected it.


really ?

I always kinda thought the black outfit was to help conceal them in shadows at night ....
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby SandChigger » 11 Sep 2009 12:32

Forgot to ask earlier: more details on that murder anecdote? :)

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby SandRider » 11 Sep 2009 12:44

what murder ? the Glenn Beck thing ?
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby SandChigger » 11 Sep 2009 14:02

Um ... well, OK, that one, too. :P

But the one I originally meant was this one:

Redstar wrote:Imagine the surprise in one particular showing when one of these "invisible" stagehands crept up behind an actor and stabbed him to death.

Sounds interesting. I've never heard anything like that, but then I'm not a big Kabuki/Noh history buff. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby Redstar » 11 Sep 2009 17:59

SandRider wrote:I always kinda thought the black outfit was to help conceal them in shadows at night ....

It's likely a ninja would have had a garb for the night, but note that ninjas basically sat around in bars spreading rumours about themselves so they could get jobs. They pretty much sucked. Any good ones would just wear normal clothes, since that helps you blend more than a full-body death suit.

SandChigger wrote:
Redstar wrote:Imagine the surprise in one particular showing when one of these "invisible" stagehands crept up behind an actor and stabbed him to death.

Sounds interesting. I've never heard anything like that, but then I'm not a big Kabuki/Noh history buff. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

It was actually a part of the play, which made it such a dramatic presentation. It's the kind of "Oh shit!" reaction KJA wishes he could invoke with his ancient oral medium.

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby E. LeGuille » 11 Sep 2009 21:53

Redstar wrote:It was actually a part of the play, which made it such a dramatic presentation. It's the kind of "Oh shit!" reaction KJA wishes he could invoke with his ancient oral medium.


:pray:
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