Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

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Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby SandChigger » 19 Oct 2008 20:03

*But were too stupid to read the books and find out for yourself.

Some nimnull on DN wrote:Are facedancer's bi-sexual and if I make hot monkey love to one does that make me gay?

Well, Anthony, I don't know if they're bisexual or not (you don't need a hyphen, dolt), but according to Scytale (the first one) in Messiah:

"We are Jadacha hermaphrodites," Scytale said, "either sex at will. For the present, I am a man."

This same Scytale becomes interested, sexually, in Irulan during the conspirators' meeting at the beginning of the book, so it seems that he is at least basically heterosexual in orientation personality-wise.

Then again...when he realizes he won't be able to have her, he consoles himself with the thought that maybe he can reproduce (=mimic) her for another some day.

HTH! :P
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby Rakis » 20 Oct 2008 23:00

SandChigger wrote:*But were too stupid to read the books and find out for yourself.

Some nimnull on DN wrote:Are facedancer's bi-sexual and if I make hot monkey love to one does that make me gay?

Well, Anthony, I don't know if they're bisexual or not (you don't need a hyphen, dolt), but according to Scytale (the first one) in Messiah:

"We are Jadacha hermaphrodites," Scytale said, "either sex at will. For the present, I am a man."

This same Scytale becomes interested, sexually, in Irulan during the conspirators' meeting at the beginning of the book, so it seems that he is at least basically heterosexual in orientation personality-wise.

Then again...when he realizes he won't be able to have her, he consoles himself with the thought that maybe he can reproduce (=mimic) her for another some day.

HTH! :P


And to think i got banned from that place, missing all that profound Dune related posting...

THANKS BYRON !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby SandChigger » 21 Oct 2008 03:52

I haven't bothered to see if anyone tried to answer him.

The interesting thing is not whether he will ever be able to realize his dream of becoming a Face Dancer (I'm assuming, of course), but what exactly a Jadacha hermaphrodite is!

Time to polish the lamp (no, that's not a euphemism for any activity involving touching myself) and conjure the Little Green Jinnî!

(Edit: No joy. Nothing in the Wehr or online. :( )
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Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2008 06:59

If you have sex with a clone of yourself is it homosexual sex or just masturbating?
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Postby SandChigger » 21 Oct 2008 09:31

Well, Anthony, since you ask...

:P

Actually, I think John Varley touched...er, on this subject in one of his stories. The clone was the opposite gender, though, so it wasn't homosexual. Technically, it wasn't masturbation, either. ;)


(John Varley...he was once rude to Alberta Cow Lady at a Con once so she's never read another of his stories or books since...a tale which increased my estimation of him tenfold. :D )

I take it, then, you have no idea what Jadacha is about, either. :)
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Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2008 09:42

SandChigger wrote:I take it, then, you have no idea what Jadacha is about, either. :)


Actually, I don't. I just tried to do a search for it and all the sites I tried were blocked.

:cry:
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Postby Secher_Nbiw » 21 Oct 2008 09:49

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I take it, then, you have no idea what Jadacha is about, either. :)


Actually, I don't. I just tried to do a search for it and all the sites I tried were blocked.

:cry:


Just tried searching myself, all i seem to come up with is Polish surnames or references to that line, with no explanation.
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Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2008 10:15

One site I found looked like it had a PDF of DM but it was blocked for "Hate". WTF?
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Postby Secher_Nbiw » 21 Oct 2008 11:08

Freakzilla wrote:One site I found looked like it had a PDF of DM but it was blocked for "Hate". WTF?


!!! eh? whats all that about like? what filter you using/had forced upon you?
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Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2008 11:19

Secher_Nbiw wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:One site I found looked like it had a PDF of DM but it was blocked for "Hate". WTF?


!!! eh? whats all that about like? what filter you using/had forced upon you?


I don't know, I close it as fast as I can when it comes up.
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Postby Secher_Nbiw » 23 Oct 2008 10:31

Freakzilla wrote:
Secher_Nbiw wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:One site I found looked like it had a PDF of DM but it was blocked for "Hate". WTF?


!!! eh? whats all that about like? what filter you using/had forced upon you?


I don't know, I close it as fast as I can when it comes up.


Let me know if you find out, I may be able to tell you how to get around it :twisted:
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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Oct 2008 10:45

Nah, I'm lucky they haven't blocked this site. I don't want to push it.
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Postby Secher_Nbiw » 23 Oct 2008 10:53

Freakzilla wrote:Nah, I'm lucky they haven't blocked this site. I don't want to push it.


Wel if you change you mind, i do IT security for a living, so, yeah.
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Postby orald » 23 Oct 2008 15:52

So the dick's actually asking: ""If I have sex with a transexual woman(i.e used to be a man), does that make me gay(oh noes!)?

And yea, I know it's inaccurate to call it such, but that's really how the idiot views them(as if for some reason male is somehow the default sex, which is highly unlikely).
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Postby SandChigger » 23 Oct 2008 18:05

I'm not entirely sure that's what he's really asking (and he probably really has no idea himself), but the real answer to his question is

"Depends on what sex the FD was when you 'hot-monkeyed' it." ;)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 12:01

SandChigger wrote:*But were too stupid to read the books and find out for yourself.

Some nimnull on DN wrote:Are facedancer's bi-sexual and if I make hot monkey love to one does that make me gay?

Well, Anthony, I don't know if they're bisexual or not (you don't need a hyphen, dolt), but according to Scytale (the first one) in Messiah:

"We are Jadacha hermaphrodites," Scytale said, "either sex at will. For the present, I am a man."

This same Scytale becomes interested, sexually, in Irulan during the conspirators' meeting at the beginning of the book, so it seems that he is at least basically heterosexual in orientation personality-wise.

Then again...when he realizes he won't be able to have her, he consoles himself with the thought that maybe he can reproduce (=mimic) her for another some day.

HTH! :P

His sexual attraction to Irulan may have to do with the fact that he is physically a man at that point. His tastes may change with the changes to his physiology.

RE: Jadacha Hermaphrodites - Perhaps there is a world called Jadacha, known for the interesting qualities of its hermaphrodites, and that is where the Tleilaxu recruit for their Face Dancers?

Anyway, what I'm more interested in than the sex question is the change in status of Face Dancers over the millennia. It would appear that DM Scytale is elite.
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Postby SandRider » 09 Nov 2008 12:03

thought you had something productive to go do ?
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Nov 2008 13:19

EsperandoAGodot wrote:Anyway, what I'm more interested in than the sex question is the change in status of Face Dancers over the millennia. It would appear that DM Scytale is elite.


In DM, Scytale is the ONLY Tleilaxu we've meet, so yeah, that is pretty "elite".

Face Dancers are meant to replace people in high positions at times, I'm sure they are elite in many ways.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 13:51

What I meant is that Scytale is specially trained and especially intelligent. Later Face Dancers are not really capable of independent thought.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 18:54

Well mostly from the harping on how they're unintelligent and drone-like. That there are hints that they're becoming independent doesn't change the fact that they were being created by the Masters as a pliant servant caste, without a real sense of self and genetically programmed to be loyal. This is very different from the Face Dancer we meet in DM...hence my feeling that they've been altered over the centuries.
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby SandChigger » 09 Nov 2008 18:55

Yes...where would someone get such an idear.... Hmmm....

Anyway!

EsperandoAGodot wrote:RE: Jadacha Hermaphrodites - Perhaps there is a world called Jadacha, known for the interesting qualities of its hermaphrodites, and that is where the Tleilaxu recruit for their Face Dancers?

Well, that's possible and probably the way that Kevin would explain it. :roll:

Two problems: Hermaphrodites are abnormal individuals. They gots both da floppy bits and the special place to stick 'em. They're born that way and can't change "at will".

From what Frank Herbert wrote, it makes more sense to assume that "Jadacha hermaphrodite" as a unit means someone who can change into either sex, as they need or please. Whatever the origin of "Jadacha", its role in the phrase is to modify "hermaphrodite" and tell us what kind of hermaphrodite we're talking about.

Second: Face Dancers are created beings. The BT make them, not recruit them.

(Note that the situation may be the exact reverse with the Twisty Mentats: the feel I get from the early books is that they're recruited.)
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Face Dancers*

Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 19:18

SandChigger wrote:Well, that's possible and probably the way that Kevin would explain it. :roll:

It's a simple explanation, to be sure, but three cheers for being patronizing! Let's get on to the rest of the post, then...
SandChigger wrote:Two problems: Hermaphrodites are abnormal individuals. They gots both da floppy bits and the special place to stick 'em. They're born that way and can't change "at will".

Well technically, in humans it means that you're intersexed, and your genitals are little bit of both, not the whole set. Some other animals can have both sets.

But that's irrelevant, because the term "Jadacha" seems to be setting them aside as different from regular hermaphrodites, something that's not inconceivable in a Known Universe tens of thousands of years in the future and living on different planets.
SandChigger wrote:From what Frank Herbert wrote, it makes more sense to assume that "Jadacha hermaphrodite" as a unit means someone who can change into either sex, as they need or please. Whatever the origin of "Jadacha", its role in the phrase is to modify "hermaphrodite" and tell us what kind of hermaphrodite we're talking about.

Yes, "Jadacha" does seem to be signaling what kind of hermaphrodite he is, and it seems to be included as a modifier because it seems to imply he can change sex at will. As there is no other explanation for the term on the table, I posited, rather simply, that "Jadacha" may have to do with a particular world or population.

Whatever the origin of the phrase, it's clear that its meaning is probably not Bene Tleilax specific; from its use as an explanation, it appears to be common knowledge, but not associated with Face Dancers.
SandChigger wrote:Second: Face Dancers are created beings. The BT make them, not recruit them.

Flubbed my phrasing. What I meant to say that perhaps, if Jadacha is a world with interesting hermaphrodites, then that's where the genetic stock for this trait may have been culled.
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Postby SandRider » 09 Nov 2008 19:40

See ? I told you he was too smart for Over There and had some
argument in him. If we can just purge the Star Wars fanboy off him,
he may prove useful ....
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Postby SandChigger » 09 Nov 2008 20:19

If you say so. I'm seeing unwarranted assumptions about otherwise unmentioned planets and populations.

"So it is said," Farok agreed. "Are you truly a man, then? I've heard stories about Face Dancers that..." He shrugged.

"We are Jadacha hermaphrodites," Scytale said, "either sex at will. For the present, I am a man."

Farok pursed his lips in thought....

Might or might not be a BT/FD specific thing; not enough info to decide one way or the other.

Presumably you would not know whether a given person was a Jadacha hermaphrodite until you examined them physically or genetically: they are either a man or a woman at any one time.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 20:40

SandChigger wrote:If you say so. I'm seeing unwarranted assumptions about otherwise unmentioned planets and populations.

The word is never referred to again. It's meaning and origin are completely unknown, aside from that it implies something about his hermaphrodism. Any possibility put forth - and it was never said to be anything aside from a possibility - would end up being unwarranted speculation, because there's no evidence about it whatsoever.
SandChigger wrote:
"So it is said," Farok agreed. "Are you truly a man, then? I've heard stories about Face Dancers that..." He shrugged.

"We are Jadacha hermaphrodites," Scytale said, "either sex at will. For the present, I am a man."

Farok pursed his lips in thought....

Might or might not be a BT/FD specific thing; not enough info to decide one way or the other.

My rationale that it may be a phrase with wider significance comes from the fact that Scytale does not explain the term "Jadacha," and offers it as part of his explanation. Either he's being purposefully mysterious, or the term "Jadacha hermaphrodites" means something to those present at the meeting.
SandChigger wrote:Presumably you would not know whether a given person was a Jadacha hermaphrodite until you examined them physically or genetically: they are either a man or a woman at any one time.

Which is why Farok asked the question, and why Scytale had to explain it.
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