Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Anathema wrote:or the BT could have collected samples from their corpses secretly.

You mean "secretly", since God Leto obvioulsy knew and approved.

All hail God Leto's wisdom!

orald wrote:

Anathema wrote:or the BT could have collected samples from their corpses secretly.

You mean "secretly", since God Leto obvioulsy knew and approved.

All hail God Leto's wisdom!

hear,hear

Anathema wrote:

Rakis wrote:It is mentionned that several Duncans were used to get cells, but not Hayt by name, IIRC.

Probably all except Hayt, who would have ended up in a deathstill.

The others though could have been sent back by Leto II, or the BT could have collected samples from their corpses secretly. Then, by the time of Heretics, they included cells of all these gholas to create a single ghola with the memory of all of them.
Teg's provocation only triggered the original memories but not the ghola memories. Maybe the ghola memories need something more potent because the gholas themselves could remember being awakened once in this way.

Argh, I just read Chapterhouse for the first time in years. It blows this whole theory out of the water.

There'd be another problem with this that I realized a couple of days ago. The Tleilaxu masters remember all their past lives chronologicly because each ghola is a continuation of the previous one; that's not the case for Duncan.

Oh well...

My $0.02:

It's clear from Dune Messiah that a ghola, in the original form, was a reanimated and restored corpse. This is not to say that the Tleilaxu were unable to produce clones, just that cloning has nothing to do with the original purpose of a ghola, which appears to have been either to provide comfort to a loved one or to provide the skilled labor of the deceased to the highest bidder. For both purposes, a clone would be useless: a man grieving his dead wife does not want to be handed a baby somewhat resembling his wife, and a buyer expecting a skilled warrior would likewise not have much use for an infant. Neither buyer wants to wait years and years, and as a clone is an infant like any other, that clone-baby would then have none of the qualities the ghola was ordered for. No, much better to reanimate the corpse.

We must also take a look at the Tleilaxu's secret plan, which was to figure out how to make a ghola access its memory. The idea of cellular/racial memory may not have been immediately obvious to the Tleilaxu. Or perhaps, if it was, it seemed like overreaching at the time. What's important is that, in both instances, it probably seemed like an obvious first step to get a dead body to access the memories of its former life. That a clone's serial memories could be accessed through trauma as well likely developed from this finding.

Using cloning technology to produce gholas seems to have come alongside a shift in the nature of the BT organization. They go from being a fairly visible entity to a rather shady one, and their technology shifts with them. Face Dancers, for example, go from being highly intelligent people trained and shaped by the Tleilaxu and employed as court jesters - to blank, barely intelligent, hive-minded eunuchs. Gholas cease to be bought for their bodies but rather for their memories. Much easier, then, to clone from a corpse and restore their memories than to transport a corpse and go through the effort of restoring it - if the memories are intact, it doesn't matter that you're handing your buyer a baby. What's more, a clone can be altered and shaped in ways that dead body cannot.

Baraka Bryan wrote:and able to have their growth accellerated by the tleilaxu.

You sure about that? I'm not.

It's probable, based on all the quotes from the beginning of the thread.

Yup, reanimated corpse I say.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Yup, reanimated corpse I say.

Yip, what with all the quotes about the flesh not wanting to come back n' stuff.

inhuien wrote:

Baraka Bryan wrote:and able to have their growth accellerated by the tleilaxu.

You sure about that? I'm not.

Edric rolled in the tank, bringing his attention to bear on the ghola. "This
is a man called Hayt," he said, spelling the name. "According to our
investigators, he has a most curious history. He was killed here on Arrakis . .
. a grievous head-wound which required many months of regrowth. The body was
sold to the Bene Tleilax as that of a master swordsman, an adept of the Ginaz
School. It came to our attention that this must be Duncan Idaho, the trusted
retainer of your household. We bought him as a gift befitting an Emperor." Edric
peered up at Paul. "Is it not Idaho, Sire?"

It took "many months" just to repair a sword wound to the head. I wouldn't call that "accelerated".

I think he was under the impression that a clone-ghola's growth could be accelerated.

EsperandoAGodot wrote:I think he was under the impression that a clone-ghola's growth could be accelerated.

I can be wrong, but I think that it stated in God Emperor of Dune, during the first chapters, when the new duncan-ghola is delivered to Leto II. Because I have this impression too. I don`t remember anything about tleilaxu raising duncan child...

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:

EsperandoAGodot wrote:I think he was under the impression that a clone-ghola's growth could be accelerated.

I can be wrong, but I think that it stated in God Emperor of Dune, during the first chapters, when the new duncan-ghola is delivered to Leto II. Because I have this impression too. I don`t remember anything about tleilaxu raising duncan child...

I got the impression that Leto ordered Idaho gholas in advance because it took time to grow them.

Freakzilla wrote:

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:

EsperandoAGodot wrote:I think he was under the impression that a clone-ghola's growth could be accelerated.

I can be wrong, but I think that it stated in God Emperor of Dune, during the first chapters, when the new duncan-ghola is delivered to Leto II. Because I have this impression too. I don`t remember anything about tleilaxu raising duncan child...

I got the impression that Leto ordered Idaho gholas in advance because it took time to grow them.

Yes, he ordered in advance because probably wasn't the fastest process to clone Duncan and let his body accelerated grown.

If Duncan was raised by the Bene Tleilax, wouldn't that contaminate the original principles of Duncan, his morals, etc? Wasn't this stuff so important to Leto II? A pure Duncan Idaho from the Paul Atreides times?
When I read the first apparition of Duncan in the GoD he seems very confused about the world he have been awakened. I think wouldn't be the reaction of someone who have been created by a foreign culture for so many time.

haven't anyone a comment about the statements of my old post above?

very sad....

I think you make a pretty strong case for possible accelerated growth there - more so in the last 2 sentences than in the first few, but those statements have a point as well.

If I had to argue against you I would say that it is also possible that the Tleilax were raising the ghola children in an isolated environment and not really teaching them much of anything, to make them as pure "Duncan" as possible.

Also though, remember that when Duncan becomes awakened to all of his past lives he discovers that he has been trained as a mentat in one of those lives - something that suggests/proves that Leto II was not necessarily getting "uncontaminated" Duncans, but perhaps having them trained/shaped/altered mentally for different purposes, or even perhaps just on a whim.

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:haven't anyone a comment about the statements of my old post above?

very sad....

(Gives a pad on Lisan's back)

There,there...

I always assumed that they brought him right out of the tank nearly an adult (yes,i know, things are different in Heretics) and then awake his memories right after that...

Also though, remember that when Duncan becomes awakened to all of his past lives he discovers that he has been trained as a mentat in one of those lives - something that suggests/proves that Leto II was not necessarily getting "uncontaminated" Duncans, but perhaps having them trained/shaped/altered mentally for different purposes, or even perhaps just on a whim.

I always thought the mentat was Hayt.

Baraka Bryan wrote:

Rakis wrote:

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:haven't anyone a comment about the statements of my old post above?

very sad....

(Gives a pad on Lisan's back)

There,there...

I always assumed that they brought him right out of the tank nearly an adult (yes,i know, things are different in Heretics) and then awake his memories right after that...

Also though, remember that when Duncan becomes awakened to all of his past lives he discovers that he has been trained as a mentat in one of those lives - something that suggests/proves that Leto II was not necessarily getting "uncontaminated" Duncans, but perhaps having them trained/shaped/altered mentally for different purposes, or even perhaps just on a whim.

I always thought the mentat was Hayt.

hayt was a mentat, though I wouldn't be surprised if more incarnations of him were trained to be mentats as well...

That is seriously embarrassing. I thought about that, but it's been a while since DM for me and I forgot. I only remembered his being trained as a Zensunni philosopher. Shit. My bad.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Baraka Bryan wrote:

Rakis wrote:

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:haven't anyone a comment about the statements of my old post above?

very sad....

(Gives a pad on Lisan's back)

There,there...

I always assumed that they brought him right out of the tank nearly an adult (yes,i know, things are different in Heretics) and then awake his memories right after that...

Also though, remember that when Duncan becomes awakened to all of his past lives he discovers that he has been trained as a mentat in one of those lives - something that suggests/proves that Leto II was not necessarily getting "uncontaminated" Duncans, but perhaps having them trained/shaped/altered mentally for different purposes, or even perhaps just on a whim.

I always thought the mentat was Hayt.

hayt was a mentat, though I wouldn't be surprised if more incarnations of him were trained to be mentats as well...

That is seriously embarrassing. I thought about that, but it's been a while since DM for me and I forgot. I only remembered his being trained as a Zensunni philosopher. Shit. My bad.

(Gives a pad on Thing's back)

There,there...

I've always believed that all the gholas after Hayt were created from Hayt's cells. Since Hayt was created from the original Duncan's cells, or from his corpse. he had the genetic memory/fighting skill/Atreides loyalty, etc. to pass on. Plus, it was tough for the Tlielaxu to MAKE Hayt: "the flesh didn't want to return..."

But my real evidence for this comes from GEoD. The new Duncan ghola has memories that could NOT have come from the original Duncan Idaho. He remembers the twins, Leto and Ghanima as children. He recognizes Muad'Dib's crysknife. Those couldn't have happened to original Duncan. At the time he was dead as fried chicken. But Hayt was alive and well. Plus, Hayt's flesh might have been easier to ghola-ize. It might have "wanted to return."

The only real catch with this theory is that none of the serial Duncans after Hayt were Mentats.

oh, and WOO! FIRST POST!!

EDITED: I reworded how the Tlielaxu MADE Hayt.

Welcome. We should really be doing this in the welcome forum... what else is the bloody thing for?

RedHeadKevin wrote:I've always believed that all the gholas after Hayt were created from Hayt's cells. Since Hayt was created from the original Duncan's cells, or from his corpse. he had the genetic memory/fighting skill/Atreides loyalty, etc. to pass on. Plus, it was tough for the Tlielaxu to MAKE Hayt: "the flesh didn't want to return..."

But my real evidence for this comes from GEoD. The new Duncan ghola has memories that could NOT have come from the original Duncan Idaho. He remembers the twins, Leto and Ghanima as children. He recognizes Muad'Dib's crysknife. Those couldn't have happened to original Duncan. At the time he was dead as fried chicken. But Hayt was alive and well. Plus, Hayt's flesh might have been easier to ghola-ize. It might have "wanted to return."

The only real catch with this theory is that none of the serial Duncans after Hayt were Mentats.

oh, and WOO! FIRST POST!!

EDITED: I reworded how the Tlielaxu MADE Hayt.

Hi RedHeadKevin

None of the Duncans post Hayt had his memories cause although IMO Hayt was a reanimated cadaver that doesn't mean that there was a continuance of memories from Prime to Hayt and then to the serial Duncans. Dead is dead.

Yeah!

(And be sure to prove that you're not really RakisHolyKnomad in disguise! )

Baraka Bryan wrote:

RedHeadKevin wrote:I've always believed that all the gholas after Hayt were created from Hayt's cells. Since Hayt was created from the original Duncan's cells, he had the genetic memory/fighting skill/Atreides loyalty, etc. to pass on. Plus, it was tough for the Tlielaxu to grow Hayt: "the flesh didn't want to return..."

But my real evidence for this comes from GEoD. The new Duncan ghola has memories that could NOT have come from the original Duncan Idaho. He remembers the twins, Leto and Ghanima as children. He recognizes Muad'Dib's crysknife. Those couldn't have happened to original Duncan. At the time he was dead as fried chicken. But Hayt was alive and well. Plus, Hayt's flesh might have been easier to ghola-ize. It might have "wanted to return."

The only real catch with this theory is that none of the serial Duncans after Hayt were Mentats.

oh, and WOO! FIRST POST!!

wasn't hayt a reanimated cadaver and then the definition of ghola seemed to change in GEoD?

also.. welcome!

Could it be that the definition changed because the change in methods was a result in the unusual demand for one individual?

At the time of Dune Messiah it seemed gholas were a novelty that came with a bit of mystery.

Due to the fact that Hayt was killed in a Fremen Seitch and most likely ended up in a deathstil, any future demand for Idaho would have HAD to come from cell samples. Technically a clone.

It seemed there was a taboo against artificial insemination, a clone is even more artificial.

Possible, I suppose. The difference in ghola techniques is one of three things:

1) an evolution or advancement in BT
techniques/technologies, etc. from "reanimating" or "regenerating" cadavers >>>>>creating whole new bodies from cadaver cells.

OR

2) it was always possible to do either (that is, reanimate a cadaver or grow a new one from cadaver cells) at the time of Messiah, but having the actual body of Duncan was intended to have a greater impact on Paul. It also alleviated the need for a lot of physical training as the same reflexes, developed muscles, etc. were maintained by "reaminating" the original body.

OR

3) Frank simply changed the concept as he developed them over time.


(I will not accept possible item 4, that it was an inconsistancy)

Personally, I like (1) and (3).

Purely technically, since FH didn't go back and update the earlier books as his concepts of various Duniverse elements evolved, there are inconsistencies.