Evolution of Gholas

[Rakis]

Duncan has had some experiences that seem to border on "powers" such as possibly prescient visions, memories for which he does not have those cells, etc., but as was mentioned earlier let's try to keep in mind that there were alot of these types of things occurring without being a KH--Teg's abilities being the most obvious. But remember, Bijaz was prescient, was he a KH? Of course not.

The real point here is that the key to being a KH is accessing BOTH female and male OMs--Duncan CAN'T DO EITHER, therefore he is NOT a "male Reverend Mother" and thus CAN'T be a freaking KH!

Agreed. Duncan, and even Marty and Daniel seem to demonstrate habilities coming from serial memories, not Ancestral memories...

[Tleszer]

One of the few things I liked about Brain and KJA's latest efforts *gasp* was their redefinition, or maybe I should say expanding, of what a Kwisatz Haderach is. As stated earlier, Duncan clearly is not a KH because he cannot access male and female ancestral memories, so he's not a KH as per FH's original definition, but I liked that the definition changed to include, more or less, "a person who fundamentally changes the world/universe."

Even though, in my opinion, that is a given for the KH, it makes the KH seem more definite and substantial than him simply being able to access the memories of all of his ancestors.

Then again, it makes "Kwisatz Haderach" seem more like a title than a state of being... never mind, it seems I just realized that Brian and KJA marginalized the KH again by taking this view of him. Man, I was hoping I found something positive that I took away from reading Hunters and Sadworms.

[Rakis]

Man, I was hoping I found something positive that I took away from reading Hunters and Sadworms.

Your not the first or the last...

[Tyrant Worm]

As I was re-reading GEoD the other day I came across an interesting conversation between Leto II and Moreno that I feel provides an interesting insight. I can't remember exactly how it goes, and as of the moment I am unable to get to a copy of the book, but it essentially states that the current Duncan (the main one in GEoD) was reconstituted, not from the original cells - in essence, he is a clone of a ghola.

I'll try to find the exact passage when I'm no longer inebriated and near a copy of the book.

[Freakzilla]

I'll try to find the exact passage when I'm no longer inebriated and near a copy of the book.

You're going to have to because I can provide several quotes from GEoD to the contrary.

[orald]

I'm not sure if I get this right, but Tyrant, do you mean to say that Duncan wasn't made of cells of the original?

The original Duncan died on Dune, the Saraukar took his body, sold it to the BT, the BT made a ghola out of it(i.e revived the actual corpse).
That ghola was called Hyat, and after he died all other Duncans are clones from cells of that ghola(which is essentially the original Duncan body).

Did I get that right?

Only difference later on is that the Duncan in HoD and ChD, is a clone, but one that is made of cells from lots of other Duncan clones, including some cells of the original body(thus containing serial memories of all those Duncans). And the BT seem to have manipulated some genes as well(part in request from the BG, part secret BT plans) for improved physical and mental performence.

---
Sorry if I just summerized everything you'd said so far, I can't bother to read all this thread. And if I'm wrong, please be sure to tell me.

[Tyrant]

I'm not sure if I get this right, but Tyrant, do you mean to say that Duncan wasn't made of cells of the original?

ARRRRGGGG!!!!! quit calling him tyrant..call him worm or something

[orald]

*caugh* Ok, I was addressing the honorable Mr. Tyrant Worm, AKA "TW".

[Freakzilla]

I don't think Leto's gholas were made from Hayt's cells, I think the BT probably saved some original cells from his first tanking.

Hayt was killed by Stilgar so his water belonged to Seitch Tabr.

[Rakis]

I don't think Leto's gholas were made from Hayt's cells, I think the BT probably saved some original cells from his first tanking.

Indeed, from GEoD:

The man knew intellectually that he was only the latest in a long
line of fleshly revivals, all products of the Tleilaxu axlotl tanks and taken from the original cells at that. The Duncan could not escape his revived memories. He knew that the Atreides had rescued him from Harkonnen bondage.

That had been a shock, but he had to believe it. To find himself living when he knew he had died, that was proof enough. The Tleilaxu had taken cells from his dead flesh and they had grown a bud in one of their axlotl tanks. That bud had become this body in a process which had made him feel at first an alien in his own flesh.

Leto later confirms to Moneo that Duncan's cells have not been manipulated by the Tlelaxu.

[orald]

Ok, so all Duncans after Hyat, except possibly the ones the BT made for the BG in HoD(of whom only one reached awakening), are clones from the original corpse, pre-Hyat.

The HoD Duncans might possiblly contain actual Hyat cells, but not likely and never mentioned.

[Rakis]

Ok, so all Duncans after Hyat, except possibly the ones the BT made for the BG in HoD(of whom only one reached awakening), are clones from the original corpse, pre-Hyat.

The HoD Duncans might possiblly contain actual Hyat cells, but not likely and never mentioned.

It is mentionned that several Duncans were used to get cells, but not Hayt by name, IIRC.

[orald]

That's why I said "but not likely and never mentioned".

Well, lets just say no Hayt at all and not even consider he might, sinc there's no mention of it.

[Freakzilla]

Ok, so all Duncans after Hyat, except possibly the ones the BT made for the BG in HoD(of whom only one reached awakening), are clones from the original corpse, pre-Hyat.

The HoD Duncans might possiblly contain actual Hyat cells, but not likely and never mentioned.

It is mentionned that several Duncans were used to get cells, but not Hayt by name, IIRC.

In HoD yes, GEoD no.

Leto drew his mouth into a tight line. The reference to his sister had troubled
the Duncan. The man knew intellectually that he was only the latest in a long
line of fleshly revivals, all products of the Tleilaxu axlotl tanks and taken
from the original cells at that. The Duncan could not escape his revived
memories. He knew that the Atreides had rescued him from Harkonnen bondage.

...

The wily Tleilaxu still produce my Duncans from the original cells. They do a
religiously forbidden thing and we both know it. I do not permit the artificial
manipulation of human genetics. But the Tleilaxu have learned how I treasure the
Duncans as the Commanders of my Guard.

...

The potential victims always survive, Leto thought. At least for the Duncans I
see. There have been slips, the fake Paul
slain and the Duncans wasted. But there are always more cells carefully
preserved from the original.

...

"I wish I had the memories of those others!"
"You couldn't have and still be the original."

...

"Lord, by preserving the flesh of the original Duncan Idaho and providing you
with restored gholas in his image and identity, we have always assumed. . ."

There are more, if you wish.

[Rakis]

Ok, so all Duncans after Hyat, except possibly the ones the BT made for the BG in HoD(of whom only one reached awakening), are clones from the original corpse, pre-Hyat.

The HoD Duncans might possiblly contain actual Hyat cells, but not likely and never mentioned.

It is mentionned that several Duncans were used to get cells, but not Hayt by name, IIRC.

In HoD yes, GEoD no.

What do you mean "In HoD yes"? They talk about Hayt being part of the cells?

[orald]

No, seems Freak was refering only to "several Duncans" in his answer, which is correct of course(though I'd phrase it as "many Duncans").

[Rakis]

No, seems Freak was refering only to "several Duncans" in his answer, which is correct of course(though I'd phrase it as "many Duncans").

Ok, thanks for the quick answer...

[Tleilax Master B]

Ok, so all Duncans after Hyat, except possibly the ones the BT made for the BG in HoD(of whom only one reached awakening), are clones from the original corpse, pre-Hyat.

The HoD Duncans might possiblly contain actual Hyat cells, but not likely and never mentioned.

Yes. They are "gholas" of the original Duncan with cells extracted from the cadaver of Duncan BEFORE it was reanimated into Hayt.

[orald]

Then they're mere clones, not gholas(which are reanimated cadavers), as mentioned in quotes on previous posts IIRC.

[Tleilax Master B]

Then they're mere clones, not gholas(which are reanimated cadavers), as mentioned in quotes on previous posts IIRC.

Nope. If the cells are taken from a cadaver, as is the case in HoD and ChD, then they are still gholas. There is no more reanimating cadavers after Messiah; they just use cadaver cells.

He probed the library for elaborations on this peculiar word.
Ghola. The library produced for him no more than bare-boned accounts: "Gholas: humans grown from a cadaver's cells in Tleilaxu axlotl tanks."

Cells from a living being (such as when they took Teg's) is a clone.

dead=ghola; living=clone

[orald]

K, my slip. Should've read all that talk from the start of this thread.

[Dom]

Yeah. I remember, when I read the books, getting somewhat confused about gholas.

In DM we get a rebuilt corpse called Hayt. When the ghola-Duncans turned up in GEoD, I was a bit thrown at first, wondering if I'd misunderstood the ghola process and that Hayt had been made out of cells cloned from Duncan's corpse. I also got the impression that the Duncans were created as fully-grown adults in that era.

I then rationalised that the Duncan in HoD was a child because of the special genetic modifications the BG Sisterhood wanted for that version.

So I was rather surprised when, after that, Teg was re-created as a ghola-baby! The only way I could rationalise it was the perhaps the one axlotl tank used was a 'young' tank and perhaps they grow bigger with age!

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

I find one more mistake in House Atreides, this time is about the ghola's thread.

BH & KJA seems to did not understand the differences between the ghola formation in Dune Messiah and GoD. In the Preludes they only used the explanation of ghola from GoD and HoD (replication of cells from a dead person), forgetting about what the DM said (reanimated cadavers).

For me, it's accept that the DM explanation for the gholas are valid only for the period before the first trilogy (Dune, DM, CoD). For this reason, using the explanation from GoD it's a mistake.

This mistake create a hole in their plot, because if the gholas are reaminated cadavers, they can't be "duplicated", so they are unique, not worthless!

Look at these passages:

"More likely, the Tleilaxu blew up their own ship simply to incriminate you. We know the small value they place on life. The passengers and crew on the destroyed craft may have only been gholas, and thus expendable. They can always grow more duplicates in their axlotl tanks."

"The Bene Tleilax were, however, true genetic wizards, willing to use unorthodox and socially heinous methods, dealing in live or dead flesh, in biological waste. With their mysterious yet powerful axlotl tanks they could grow clones from live cells and gholas from dead ones. The Tleilaxu had a slippery, shifty aura about them. How can anyone take them seriously?"

And they still saying that the OHs looks only for unimportant details....

[SandChigger]

Well, Outer Voice...

"If that's what gives you heartburn and keeps you up at night, then I'm sorry, my friend, but you need to get a life!"
—Kevin James Anderson

[Anathema]

It is mentionned that several Duncans were used to get cells, but not Hayt by name, IIRC.

Probably all except Hayt, who would have ended up in a deathstill.

The others though could have been sent back by Leto II, or the BT could have collected samples from their corpses secretly. Then, by the time of Heretics, they included cells of all these gholas to create a single ghola with the memory of all of them.
Teg's provocation only triggered the original memories but not the ghola memories. Maybe the ghola memories need something more potent because the gholas themselves could remember being awakened once in this way.