Evolution of Gholas
Posted: 12 Feb 2008 18:29
I've posted this elsewhere, but wanted it archived here as well. I've made the argument that Frank's concepts of gholas changed over time. I believe originally (i.e. Hayt), gholas were regenerated/reaminated (use whatever term you like) cadavers, requiring a preserved corpse and more than just a few cells. Here wounds would be regrown and the body brought back to life. By the time of GEoD, the Duncan's are being made from just a few cells that the BT saved from the original cadaver (before it is restored as "Hayt"). Here is my evidence:
In DM:
"No Face Dancer," Edric said. "A Face Dancer risks exposure under prolonged surveillance. No; let us assume that our wise Sardaukar commander had Idaho's corpse preserved for the axolotl tanks. Why not? This corpse held the flesh and nerves of one of the finest swordsmen in history, an adviser to the Atreides, a military genius. What a waste to lose all that training and ability when it might be revived as an instructor for the Sardaukar."
Thus the corpse had to be preserved and brought back, with the same flesh and nerves. This is also the case when Bijaz offers to make a Chani ghola for Paul--they need to get the corpse preserved so they can go back and regenerate it for him.
"It's not too late, m'Lord," Bijaz said. "Will you have your love back? We can restore her to you. A ghola, yes. But now -- we hold out the full restoration. Shall we summon servants with a cryological tank, preserve the flesh of your beloved . . . "
Here the wounds Duncan sustained are "regrown" to make Hayt (note, only the wounds, not the whole body):
Edric rolled in the tank, bringing his attention to bear on the ghola. "This is a man called Hayt," he said, spelling the name. "According to our investigators, he has a most curious history. He was killed here on Arrakis . . . a grievous head-wound which required many months of regrowth. The body was sold to the Bene Tleilax as that of a master swordsman, an adept of the Ginaz School. It came to our attention that this must be Duncan Idaho, the trusted retainer of your household. We bought him as a gift befitting an Emperor."
When Alia and Duncan find the body in the desert, it is too far gone to regrow as a ghola:
"We may never learn who it was died here," he said. "The head, the teeth are gone. The hands . . . Unlikely such a one had a genetic record somewhere to which her cells could be matched."
"Tleilaxu poison," she said. "What do you make of that?"
"Many people buy such poisons."
"True enough. And this flesh is too far gone to be regrown as was done with your body."
"Even if you could trust the Tleilaxu to do it," he said.
She nodded, stood. "You will fly me back to the city now."
[EDIT: thanks Phaedrus for reminding me of the following two quotes from DM]
"You are not Hayt," the dwarf said. "You are Duncan Idaho I was there when they put your dead flesh into the tank and I was there when they removed it, alive and ready for training."
"We had a terrific struggle with you. The flesh did not want to come back."
By the time of GEoD, only cells from the cadaver are needed to make a ghola. Thus, the cells of the original Duncan are saved and used regularly to send Duncan gholas to the Tyrant. Each one made from original cells, none of which had Hayt's memories or any previous Duncan ghola (i.e. serial ghola).
The man knew intellectually that he was only the latest in a long
line of fleshly revivals, all products of the Tleilaxu axlotl tanks and taken from the original cells at that. The Duncan could not escape his revived memories. He knew that the Atreides had rescued him from Harkonnen bondage. (GEoD)
I am a ghola, he told himself.
That had been a shock, but he had to believe it. To find himself living when he knew he had died, that was proof enough. The Tleilaxu had taken cells from his dead flesh and they had grown a bud in one of their axlotl tanks. That bud had become this body in a process which had made him feel at first an alien in his own flesh.
The potential victims always survive, Leto thought. At least for the Duncans I see. There have been slips, the fake Paul slain and the Duncans wasted. But there are always more cells carefully
preserved from the original.
"They believe I will not destroy them because they hold the original cells of my Duncan Idaho," Leto said. "Do you understand, Duncan?"
Now both of these cases involved cadavers, either whole bodies initially or cells of the corpse preserved. If the cells are extraced from a living person, that person is technically a clone. Such as what were taken from Teg.
He favored the two women with a short glance but remained silent, apparently unmoved by the intensity of their inspection.
Tamalane frowned. She had disagreed from the first with calling this child a ghola. Gholas were grown from cells of a cadaver. This was a clone, just as Scytale was a clone.
Any thoughts? Flaws in my logic?
In DM:
"No Face Dancer," Edric said. "A Face Dancer risks exposure under prolonged surveillance. No; let us assume that our wise Sardaukar commander had Idaho's corpse preserved for the axolotl tanks. Why not? This corpse held the flesh and nerves of one of the finest swordsmen in history, an adviser to the Atreides, a military genius. What a waste to lose all that training and ability when it might be revived as an instructor for the Sardaukar."
Thus the corpse had to be preserved and brought back, with the same flesh and nerves. This is also the case when Bijaz offers to make a Chani ghola for Paul--they need to get the corpse preserved so they can go back and regenerate it for him.
"It's not too late, m'Lord," Bijaz said. "Will you have your love back? We can restore her to you. A ghola, yes. But now -- we hold out the full restoration. Shall we summon servants with a cryological tank, preserve the flesh of your beloved . . . "
Here the wounds Duncan sustained are "regrown" to make Hayt (note, only the wounds, not the whole body):
Edric rolled in the tank, bringing his attention to bear on the ghola. "This is a man called Hayt," he said, spelling the name. "According to our investigators, he has a most curious history. He was killed here on Arrakis . . . a grievous head-wound which required many months of regrowth. The body was sold to the Bene Tleilax as that of a master swordsman, an adept of the Ginaz School. It came to our attention that this must be Duncan Idaho, the trusted retainer of your household. We bought him as a gift befitting an Emperor."
When Alia and Duncan find the body in the desert, it is too far gone to regrow as a ghola:
"We may never learn who it was died here," he said. "The head, the teeth are gone. The hands . . . Unlikely such a one had a genetic record somewhere to which her cells could be matched."
"Tleilaxu poison," she said. "What do you make of that?"
"Many people buy such poisons."
"True enough. And this flesh is too far gone to be regrown as was done with your body."
"Even if you could trust the Tleilaxu to do it," he said.
She nodded, stood. "You will fly me back to the city now."
[EDIT: thanks Phaedrus for reminding me of the following two quotes from DM]
"You are not Hayt," the dwarf said. "You are Duncan Idaho I was there when they put your dead flesh into the tank and I was there when they removed it, alive and ready for training."
"We had a terrific struggle with you. The flesh did not want to come back."
By the time of GEoD, only cells from the cadaver are needed to make a ghola. Thus, the cells of the original Duncan are saved and used regularly to send Duncan gholas to the Tyrant. Each one made from original cells, none of which had Hayt's memories or any previous Duncan ghola (i.e. serial ghola).
The man knew intellectually that he was only the latest in a long
line of fleshly revivals, all products of the Tleilaxu axlotl tanks and taken from the original cells at that. The Duncan could not escape his revived memories. He knew that the Atreides had rescued him from Harkonnen bondage. (GEoD)
I am a ghola, he told himself.
That had been a shock, but he had to believe it. To find himself living when he knew he had died, that was proof enough. The Tleilaxu had taken cells from his dead flesh and they had grown a bud in one of their axlotl tanks. That bud had become this body in a process which had made him feel at first an alien in his own flesh.
The potential victims always survive, Leto thought. At least for the Duncans I see. There have been slips, the fake Paul slain and the Duncans wasted. But there are always more cells carefully
preserved from the original.
"They believe I will not destroy them because they hold the original cells of my Duncan Idaho," Leto said. "Do you understand, Duncan?"
Now both of these cases involved cadavers, either whole bodies initially or cells of the corpse preserved. If the cells are extraced from a living person, that person is technically a clone. Such as what were taken from Teg.
He favored the two women with a short glance but remained silent, apparently unmoved by the intensity of their inspection.
Tamalane frowned. She had disagreed from the first with calling this child a ghola. Gholas were grown from cells of a cadaver. This was a clone, just as Scytale was a clone.
Any thoughts? Flaws in my logic?