Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

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AnEhforanEh
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 05:50

The topic of this thread is about the Siona gene so I want to go back to that. First, what is the Siona gene? Well, its that particular gene sequence that natural obscures a person from prescience. But it is also an Atriedes gene, and while the ability for prescience (as Paul and Leto knew it) has been bred out, it still might hold potential for wild expressions.

Now, lets look at Duncan. The last Duncan specifically. Enhanced muscle and nervature to bring his "old" reflexes up to modern day standards. Thousands of lives remembered as though through one body (even the ones he has no physical cellular connection with). The Siona gene present in only some of his cells. Honored Matre imprinting techniques.

Now, the tleilaxu were known to tamper with the Duncans throughout the reign of Leto II. What if they "layered" newer Duncan cells on top of the original cells? Genetically, how would you know? Leto even said, some Duncans rebelled much quicker than others; can we assume it was because of the gene layering and the memories that came with it?

Fast forward to C:D Duncan... What if a wild expression of the Siona (aka Atriedes) gene gave him the ability to "piggy back" from a cellular life to one of those "layered" (and presumably lost, in this case) lives? How else would his mind make the distiction except as another bead in the chain (or whatever analogy he used to explain it). He wouldn't neccessarily know that that "lost" life was riding off a previous life since he saw his entire past in that way.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Sep 2016 07:26

The last Duncan WAS a composite of cells from ALL the Duncans they could get samples from. The queston remains how did he have memories from the gholas that didn't contribute cell samples?
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 09:38

Yes. Sorry, i meant some of the gholas during Leto's reign had "layered" cells.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 10:18

georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:Try to think how all those things link to Duncan. I'm sure you can figure it out. We think of "at once" differently. If there were 5 Duncans that existed at different times, it can be said Duncan literally existed five places at once. From the perspective of Duncan. At once doesn't need to be "happening parallel". You are getting all tripped on across time and at once.

I'm right.


Um...are you aware that what you just said is literally true of every living being who is more than zero seconds old? Every single individual 'exists or existed' in the past as well as the present. What you are not realizing is that the 'past Duncans' ARE Duncan. They are not previous versions or different individuals with similar DNA or whatever. They are him. He is thousands of years old. That's why he's different from everyone else. The BT masters could say the same, except their DNA was so altered from the human norm that they likely had no possibility to be latent oracles, as Freak has sometimes put it. The new Duncan, on the other hand, had his entire history of lives (connected through ghola awakenings) and had Atreides DNA thrown into the mix. The BT clearly knew something about Atreides DNA was special.

So no, the fact that Duncan's existed at different times is immaterial. Many 'Pauls' existed at different times too; age 15, age 16, etc. That's not what gave him his power; or rather, Frank says nothing to that effect. Paul, as the KH, was not 'many places at once' on account of the fact that he was once younger. That's just a useless truism and tells us nothing. Everyone was younger once, including Duncan. That fact that Duncan's younger self seems from a normal perspective to have been cut off by 'deaths' is irrelevant. The whole point of the BT technology is that death doesn't really kill someone.



While I agree with you that it applies to everyone, this point is moot. I see why you are are trying to stress it. But in terms of Dune, think of Teg, Duncan, Marty, and Daniel. They are personalities outside of time. Think the reason they can exist at the same time is not because they are linked individually to one another. All the Duncan bodies are linked by Duncan's personality. Get enough people into one and you can exist outside of time like Daniel and Marty.

And it could also be Duncan, Daniel, and Marty contain The Atreides wild trait that allows them to see into no-fields. But other people would have done it before. Its the atreides gene in conjuntion with being a personality existing outside of time. "Duncan" the personality exists in all of them at the same time because he is outside of time. The bodies are linearly timed while the mind is not. So doesnt really apply to us. We dont have the atreides gene or any ghola incarnations or absorbed lives.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2016 12:12

Godemperorjames wrote:But in terms of Dune, think of Teg, Duncan, Marty, and Daniel. They are personalities outside of time.


See, this is the kind of statement your argument rides on, and I'm not quite sure it has a definite meaning. Can you specifically define what this statement means, in terms that relate to what Frank wrote?

Think the reason they can exist at the same time is not because they are linked individually to one another. All the Duncan bodies are linked by Duncan's personality. Get enough people into one and you can exist outside of time like Daniel and Marty.


Again, this is a nifty idea but I don't see textual evidence. I also won't go as far as to say it's impossible that this makes sense, but that's different from saying the text directly implies this is the case. Incidentally, I don't believe the Duncans did all have the 'same' personality, which makes this argument very difficult to process. Perhaps the Duncans were more like each other than they were like someone else, but although they shared 'a body', if you will, the personalities seemed to change seemingly at random in each iteration.

And it could also be Duncan, Daniel, and Marty contain The Atreides wild trait that allows them to see into no-fields. But other people would have done it before. Its the atreides gene in conjuntion with being a personality existing outside of time. "Duncan" the personality exists in all of them at the same time because he is outside of time. The bodies are linearly timed while the mind is not. So doesnt really apply to us. We dont have the atreides gene or any ghola incarnations or absorbed lives.


Freak's question is the real question here. How did Duncan have the memories of the missing Duncan cells? It's simple to see how he'd have the memories from the cells he does have. One answer I can think of is that his 'latent prescience' wasn't honed enough yet to see the rest of the universe but was sensitive enough to 'resonate' with his own past, and using that limited prescience could see all Duncans by scanning backwards. So far my chief theory is still that Duncan's and M&D's abilities are directly related to what the text in CH:D says about Holtzmann's equations and how someone figured out how to use them. It seems to me Frank was going to link prescience with the Holtzmann field mechanically, and show that people like M&D and then Duncan could manipulate Holtzmann fields with their minds just as technology previously had done in a limited fashion. Folding space, for instance, which we might call teleportation, is really time travel, since time is just a measurement of spacial orientation (general relativity). What ships had been doing in a linear and one-off manner is something the oracle could do in a much broader way. In the case of Duncan and M&D, they have the serial memories as well, and who knows what else. Maybe the BT gave Duncan something other than what we've been told so far. In any case, the one thing in common between the three of them and Teg is that M&D as well as Duncan were presumably awakened via double-sexual imprinting, while Teg was awakened by resisting torture. Maybe these are similar in some way, but putting Teg aside for the moment, I think the fact of having been awakened via double imprinting is important as to why they can do what they do. We may note that although M&D are presumably not the only SFD's of their kind, they are the only ones who are revealed to be able to do what they do. It could be they are the only ones who were bonded to another SFD and whose abilities in this sense were activated. I guess I'll never know for sure, but based on the content of CH:D I think the double-bonding was going to be an important topic.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Serkanner » 25 Sep 2016 15:06

Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.


Did the Tleilaxu do this delibaretly or was it a consequence of just using original cells from ghola's from before Siona?


Im pretty sure the Tleilaxu could make a Duncan Ghola any way they wanted.


Did they? They had to kill quite a number of them before the final Duncan.


Always a possibility. Who knows the limitations the Tleilaxu had? I just think if they wanted a blue duncan they could probably make one. They made sligs and chairdogs. I could see it being difficult with more abstract gene stuff like prescience or the siona gene. So I could definitely be wrong!


You stated that the Tleilaxu can make any Duncan they want, so according to you they didn't have limitations. My opinion is they did have limitations and it is supported by the text. Numerous Duncans were destroyed by the Teleilaxu because of "flaws", and the final Duncan was not what they expected. In other words: you are wrong.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 17:42

Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:While on Chapterhouse, Duncan needed to be kept on a no-ship because only some of his cells contained the Siona gene? Why would the Tleilaxu do this? Frank Herbert obviously did it intentionally and it seems like an important factor in how Dune 7 would have played out.


Did the Tleilaxu do this delibaretly or was it a consequence of just using original cells from ghola's from before Siona?


Im pretty sure the Tleilaxu could make a Duncan Ghola any way they wanted.


Did they? They had to kill quite a number of them before the final Duncan.


Always a possibility. Who knows the limitations the Tleilaxu had? I just think if they wanted a blue duncan they could probably make one. They made sligs and chairdogs. I could see it being difficult with more abstract gene stuff like prescience or the siona gene. So I could definitely be wrong!


You stated that the Tleilaxu can make any Duncan they want, so according to you they didn't have limitations. My opinion is they did have limitations and it is supported by the text. Numerous Duncans were destroyed by the Teleilaxu because of "flaws", and the final Duncan was not what they expected. In other words: you are wrong.


Are you kidding me? What is up with you people? Why would i have the same opinion with new information? I was admitting that i dont know everything and anyone can be wrong. But you use that as a negative and then decide what my true opinion is?

Have fun with your simple thoughts. Im done arguing with you people just to argue. Did you guys even read the quotes? Its not my fault you cant see the connections.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 17:48

You guys are arguing to argue. Saying you dont see the textual evidence? Did you guys read the quotes?! "Big ball of knowledge" "network linked outside of time" "is he another kwisatz haderach?"

You guys are legit retarded? Read my quotes. Pretttttttttty supported. You guys are looking for something along the lines of the books saying what im arguing exactly. Piece it together yourself. That doesnt mean each of those pieces isnt supported and that the total composite argument is not supported.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 18:14

You dont think it's possible you are reading to much into what could be passing comments? "Outside of time" could easily be a mentat phrase. There is not enough evidence supporting your claim as to its meaning, let alone attribibuting it to Teg and M&D as well.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 18:31

It's the reason he can access all his memories. That was Duncan's own mentat projection. Dan, Mart, Teg. Im pretttty sure Frank didnt just throw all those details in there to sound fancy.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 18:38

AnEhforanEh wrote:You dont think it's possible you are reading to much into what could be passing comments? "Outside of time" could easily be a mentat phrase. There is not enough evidence supporting your claim as to its meaning, let alone attribibuting it to Teg and M&D as well.


Thank you for at least coming at it with a "possibiltiy" lense. I feel like im crazy here! The facts all together are overwhelming! Doesnt that sound like a frank thing to do? It's funny i say im done arguing but i keep coming back because dune.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 20:06

Its also a Frank thing to be pretty candid about important details, often repeating them.
However, i do think you're onto something with that crazy bit. :wink:

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2016 20:15

Dude, I think you're mistaking "not supported by the text" with "you're wrong." Those aren't the same thing. There is an aspect in looking towards what Dune 7 would have been where we admittedly are restricted to making our own speculations. Some statements can be made clearly, and others are 'a guess' that we can put forward but with no more strength than that. That's not so much disparaging on the guesses, as it is simply a fact that we're lacking information. My point is that you're using some kind of logic to justify what "outside of time" means, when we can't know what it means. You might suggest that it's possibly important, and I wouldn't negate that in the least. But stating what the explanation is, as if you can be certain about it when the text only gives vague hints, is what I mean by "not supported by the text." Yes, it means Frank wasn't giving away the whole game prior to Dune 7. Or maybe it means he never wanted it to be entirely solved. Who knows.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 21:22

Godemperorjames wrote:"Idaho, seated alone at his console, encountered an entry he had stored in Shipsystems during his first days of confinement, and found himself dumped (he applied the word later) into attitudes and sensory awareness of that earlier time. It no longer was afternoon of a frustrating day in the no-ship. He was back there, stretched between then and now the way serial ghola lives linked this incarnation to his original birth.

The part i highlighted draws a distinction between his serial lives and the sensation he is feeling from accessing Shipsystems. The noship is technology from the Scattering, which as we saw evidenced by the T-probe, has the ability to interface directly with a persons neurological structure. "Back then" when Duncan made the entry the machine took an imprint of his "attitudes and sensory awareness" at that time, later to be experienced when the record is reviewed. He feels "stretched" because part of his awareness still remains in the present.

Immediately, he saw what he had come to call “the net” and the elderly couple defined by criss-crossed lines, bodies visible through a shimmering of jeweled ropes—green, blue, gold, and a silver so brilliant it made his eyes ache.

He sensed godlike stability in these people, but something common about them. The word ordinary came to mind. The by-now-familiar garden landscape stretched out behind them: floral bushes (roses, he thought), rolling lawns, tall trees.

The couple stared back at him with an intensity that made Idaho feel naked.

New power in the vision! It no longer was confined to the Great Hold, an increasingly compulsive magnet drawing him down there so frequently he knew the watchdogs were alerted.

Is he another Kwisatz Haderach?" (Chapterhouse: Dune, pg. 178)

As for my argument that Duncan is the true Kwisatz Haderach because he "literally" exists in many places at once is supported by this passage and the following. Notice how Duncan Idaho describes himself as being stretched thin when going over his ghola memories. This is important when compared to how Daniel and Marty view him. Notice how Duncan asks himself if he is another Kwisatz Haderach and how he saw Daniel and Marty in his vision.



"All of those serial lives continued within him in defiance of Mentat relevancies. A Mentat came at his universe fresh in each instant. Nothing old, nothing new, nothing set in ancient adhesives, nothing truly known. You were the net and you existed only to examine the catch.

What did not go through? How fine a mesh did I use on this lot?

I'm not sure what in this hodge-podge of quotes I'm supposed to make connections with. The only thing is the reference to using a "net" to screen datum and the shimmering "net" Duncan sees in the vision of M&D. One is a mentat figure of speech, the other is a visual representation of some new technology (possibly a prescient oracle?). I see no concrete proof these two "nets" are one and the same.

That was the Mentat view. But there was no way the Tleilaxu could have included all of those ghola-Idaho cells to recreate him. There had to be gaps in their serial collection of his cells. He had identified many of those gaps.

But no gaps in my memory. I remember them all.

He was a network linked outside of Time. That is how I can see the people of that vision … the net. It was the only explanation Mentat awareness could provide and if the Sisterhood guessed, they would be terrified. No matter how many times he denied it, they would say: “Another Kwisatz Haderach! Kill him!”(CH:D, pg. 208)

This passage reveals how Duncan is able to be "linked outside of Time" and how there are no gaps in his ghola memories.

It doesnt reveal "how" he could be outside of time, just that he believes he is. It is mentat projection based on logic, but the books also establish that logic is fallible.
There is also no connective tissue between his revelation of being outside time and remembering his "missing" lives. Its a possibility but its not immediately obvious as you seem to think.

"'Of what use would even a no-planet be if someone could penetrate the shielding?'

She glanced at the boy. Idaho knew their suspicion that the Bashar had seen the no-ships? Naturally! A Mentat of his abilities … bits and pieces assembled into a masterful projection.

'It would require the entire output of a G-3 sun to shield any halfway livable planet.' Dry and very cool the way she looked down at him.

'Nothing is out of the question in the Scattering.'

'But not within our present capabilities. Do you have something less ambitious?'

'Review the genetic markers in the cells of your people. Look for common patterns in Atreides inheritance. There may be talents you have not even guessed.'

'Your inventive imagination bounces around.'


...'Ixians havent penetrated Holzmann's unification concept', he said."(CH:D, pg. 231-232)

This passage reveals that Daniel and Marty have constructed a giant no-shield or some alternative ,by either solving the energy problem or by penetrating Holzmann's unification concept, around their planet/planets and that they can see into the no-ships of the old empire and people with the siona gene.

For the later, that much is obvious. For the former, it might be inferred but nothing in those randomly chosen quotes confirms it.

"'And I had such a nice planet picked out for them,” Marty said. “One of the best. A real test of their abilities.'

'No use moaning about it,” Daniel said. “They’re where we can’t touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy.'

So, (and I'm humoring you here) it would have been easy to catch Duncan because be spread his personality throughout his multiple incarnations. But Marty and Daniel make every indication that they have done this to other people, numerous times. Will you suggest that all of them could "spread themselves thin" in the same way Duncan could?
'They had a Tleilaxu Master, too,” Marty said. “I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master.'

...

I don’t see why. It’s a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and…”

'It’s personas we take, Marty.'

'Whatever. The Masters should’ve known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future.'

'And theirs?'

'Oh, I’d have apologized to him after putting him in his place. You can do just so much managing of others, isn’t that right, Daniel?'

'When you get that look on your face, Marty, I go prune my roses.' He went back to a line of bushes with verdant leaves and black blooms as large as his head.

Marty called after him: 'Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel! That’s what I’d have told him. And those Bene Gesserit in that ship! I’d have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?'"(CH:D, pg. 432-433)

The final chapter gives interesting descriptions. The way Daniel and Marty describe what they saw and what they know is similar to the way Duncan Idaho describes his visions and himself. See how Marty focuses on gathering up memories and experiences while Daniel says they gather personas. Marty's hypothetical advice to Duncan hints about him gathering enough people and him getting a big ball of knowledge.

The are other correlations you are leaving out:
We've seen that if a FD stays in persona too long, it becomes that person and no longer obeys orders from a Master. This can be seen as a form of possession. Leto escaped possession by essentially becoming all of his ancestors (its a bit more complicated than that, but I'm being brief). FD can accomplish the same thing in the same way: becoming an amalgam of all their stolen personas, escaping "possession" and breaking free of Master control all at the same time. That sounds exactly like what Marty and Daniel were saying.
In conclusion, the idea that Duncan is the true Kwisatz Haderach because he is literally in multiple places at once [albeit not from a non-duncan perspective] is not far-fetched or unsupported. <snipped your balls here>

No, it's not "far-fetched or unsupported" but that doesnt make it likely. And its certainly not obvious.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 21:42

Touching back on my last comments,
Marty and Daniel exhibit traits closer to a RM "Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?" Marty wasnt talking about tbe Sisters on Chapterhouse... or on the fleeing noship. She was talking about the RM personas she has encapsulated.

Duncan is more like the BT masters.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 25 Sep 2016 22:00

FD can accomplish the same thing in the same way: becoming an amalgam of all their stolen personas, escaping "possession" and breaking free of Master control all at the same time. That sounds exactly like what Marty and Daniel were saying.



Very good points. That's what made me first think about how Duncan was outside of time and what they shared in common. One thing I was kind of waiting for you to point out, was how was Teg able to see the no ship before he became a ghola/clone?

NOW, here i have absolutely no textual evidence. I got to give it to you there. I think its because Teg was awakened in the future, thus becoming a personality outside of time. Giving him the ability to see no ships even before he became a ghola/clone.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2016 22:25

AnEhforanEh wrote:Touching back on my last comments,
Marty and Daniel exhibit traits closer to a RM "Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?" Marty wasnt talking about tbe Sisters on Chapterhouse... or on the fleeing noship. She was talking about the RM personas she has encapsulated.


Hm I have to say I think she was talking about peeking at living RM's the same way they were peeking at Duncan, through the net. Being 'spread thin' made M&D more sensitive to them, but likewise made the RM's more sensitive to the net.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2016 22:28

Godemperorjames wrote:NOW, here i have absolutely no textual evidence. I got to give it to you there. I think its because Teg was awakened in the future, thus becoming a personality outside of time. Giving him the ability to see no ships even before he became a ghola/clone.


The only thing I feel I have to go on with Teg is Frank's essay about adaptation and his comments about how there will always be the next evolutionary adaptation or technological feat which overcomes previously established balances. I think it's an Atreides thing.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 25 Sep 2016 23:55

georgiedenbro wrote:Hm I have to say I think she was talking about peeking at living RM's the same way they were peeking at Duncan, through the net.


Except that according to the Face Dancers, Duncan was peeking at them.
Being 'spread thin' made M&D more sensitive to them, but likewise made the RM's more sensitive to the net.

You just made that up.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby AnEhforanEh » 26 Sep 2016 00:11

Godemperorjames wrote:One thing I was kind of waiting for you to point out, was how was Teg able to see the no ship before he became a ghola/clone?

:? Why would he need to be a ghola to do that?

NOW, here i have absolutely no textual evidence. I got to give it to you there. I think its because Teg was awakened in the future, thus becoming a personality outside of time. Giving him the ability to see no ships even before he became a ghola/clone.

There is just so much wrong with this statement.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Sep 2016 08:42

AnEhforanEh wrote:
Being 'spread thin' made M&D more sensitive to them, but likewise made the RM's more sensitive to the net.

You just made that up.


On a previous read-through of CH:D I could have sworn there was a passage of Odrade being aware of something eerie at one point, but when I read it a few months ago I didn't notice the passage. I'll have to scan the book and try to find it.
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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 09:59

georgiedenbro wrote:
AnEhforanEh wrote:
Being 'spread thin' made M&D more sensitive to them, but likewise made the RM's more sensitive to the net.

You just made that up.


On a previous read-through of CH:D I could have sworn there was a passage of Odrade being aware of something eerie at one point, but when I read it a few months ago I didn't notice the passage. I'll have to scan the book and try to find it.


I think you are thinking of Odrades dream of the axe murderer. I used to think she was dreaming of the honored Matres but now that i think of it maybe it was Daniel and Marty.

As a side note, I'm really impressed by your projections. I know there are more connections and passages that strengthen this idea that I haven't noticed yet. It's difficult to see their importance individually, but all together the evidence becomes almost overwhelming, at least if Frank Herbert did it intentionally. I doubt he did it on accident or as deus ex machina or exposition.
Last edited by Godemperorjames on 26 Sep 2016 13:53, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 10:24

I think georgiedenbro and i are connecting things like mentats. It's ok, AnEhforanEh. Some people need things spelled out. That's fine too.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 10:27

AnEhforanEh wrote:
Godemperorjames wrote:One thing I was kind of waiting for you to point out, was how was Teg able to see the no ship before he became a ghola/clone?

:? Why would he need to be a ghola to do that?

NOW, here i have absolutely no textual evidence. I got to give it to you there. I think its because Teg was awakened in the future, thus becoming a personality outside of time. Giving him the ability to see no ships even before he became a ghola/clone.

There is just so much wrong with this statement.


Think of all the people we know for a fact can see into no-fields and what they share in common.

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Re: Duncan's Partial Siona Gene

Postby Godemperorjames » 26 Sep 2016 12:09

AnEhforanEh wrote:Its also a Frank thing to be pretty candid about important details, often repeating them.



Are we reading the same series?


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