The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby lukecash12 » 25 Aug 2011 19:42

A Thing of Eternity wrote:No, it's common knowledge that the BT had never restored memories before Hayt, they make a giant deal out of it in the book, it's pretty massive - so yeah, you can treat that statement as non-suspect.


You're right. I had meant that Hayt witnessing to it is suspect. The Tleilaxu could have told Hayt all kinds of things.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Aug 2011 00:55

lukecash12 wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:No, it's common knowledge that the BT had never restored memories before Hayt, they make a giant deal out of it in the book, it's pretty massive - so yeah, you can treat that statement as non-suspect.


You're right. I had meant that Hayt witnessing to it is suspect. The Tleilaxu could have told Hayt all kinds of things.


Definitely.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby Thodol » 20 Oct 2011 22:57

lotek wrote:that's what I've heard...

but Duncan's love for the Atreides is of a different sort I guess.


It seems like its explained in the previous quote "A creature who has spend his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation,' Scytale said. Duncun's entire self was based on loyalty and love to the Atreides. They attempted to make him go against that but instead of causing him to commit suicide it broke his conditioning and allowed his previous life to come to the surface. They put him in the most conflicted situation possible knowing the massive stress it causes hoping it would be the catalyst for Ghola immortality.

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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Oct 2011 12:51

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
lukecash12 wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:No, it's common knowledge that the BT had never restored memories before Hayt, they make a giant deal out of it in the book, it's pretty massive - so yeah, you can treat that statement as non-suspect.


You're right. I had meant that Hayt witnessing to it is suspect. The Tleilaxu could have told Hayt all kinds of things.


Definitely.


But Hayt was trained as a Zensunni Mentat, I don't think lying to him would have helped.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby JustSomeGuy » 25 Oct 2011 01:03

Freakzilla wrote:Hayt was trained as a Zensunni Mentat, I don't think lying to him would have helped.


Yeah... The Dune universe is well populated and I'm sure (pretty sure) that there were alternatives to the Tleilaxu. The Tleilaxu- in my opinion- delivered quality products. They were big-time players, and they were taking chances.

Thodoi wrote:They put him in the most conflicted situation possible knowing the massive stress it causes hoping it would be the catalyst for Ghola immortality.


We don't know that for sure (do we?- I don't).
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby Nameless Swordsman » 14 Apr 2013 18:42

Thodol wrote:
lotek wrote:that's what I've heard...

but Duncan's love for the Atreides is of a different sort I guess.


It seems like its explained in the previous quote "A creature who has spend his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation,' Scytale said. Duncun's entire self was based on loyalty and love to the Atreides. They attempted to make him go against that but instead of causing him to commit suicide it broke his conditioning and allowed his previous life to come to the surface. They put him in the most conflicted situation possible knowing the massive stress it causes hoping it would be the catalyst for Ghola immortality.


This is probably the most brilliant idea I've seen written here, to date.

The idea that their "conspiracy attempt" to assassinate Muad'dib was merely just a way for them to bring their Immortal-Ghola prototype to fruition.

I would imagine that Duncan's love for the Atreides, in his moment of stress, did cause him to, as a defense-mechanism - consciously and forcibly dredge up every memory of his life as their loyal servant, in order to protect his psyche, thus accomplishing their goal.

It could have also been the "true" Duncan forcibly manifesting itself - in order to protect his Duke.

So in any case, the idea above is brilliant.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby ULFsurfer » 14 Apr 2013 20:27

Nameless Swordsman wrote:
The idea that their "conspiracy attempt" to assassinate Muad'dib was merely just a way for them to bring their Immortal-Ghola prototype to fruition.


If that was the sole reason, why then did they not conduct these experiments on random test subjects in secrecy on their home planet?

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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby Naïve mind » 14 Apr 2013 23:36

ULFsurfer wrote:If that was the sole reason, why then did they not conduct these experiments on random test subjects in secrecy on their home planet?


Perhaps to give Muad'dib a dramatic demonstration that it could be done. And perhaps it really required an individual of unusual loyalty, placed in an unusually stressful situation to accomplish this.

"Atreides," Scytale said, "shall we bargain now?"
Behind him, Paul heard a single hoarse curse. His throat constricted at the suppressed violence in Idaho's voice. Idaho must not break! Scytale would kill the babies!
"To strike a bargain, one requires a thing to sell," Scytale said. "Not so, Atreides? Will you have your Chani back? We can restore her to you. A ghola, Atreides. A ghola with full memory! But we must hurry. Call your friends to bring a cryologic tank to preserve the flesh."
To hear Chani's voice once more, Paul thought. To feel her presence beside me. Ahhh, that's why they gave me Idaho as a ghola, to let me discover how much the re-creation is like the original. But now -- full restoration . . . at their price. I'd be a Tleilaxu tool forevermore. And Chani . . . chained to the same fate by a threat to our children, exposed once more to the Qizarate's plotting . . .

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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby Nameless Swordsman » 15 Apr 2013 06:30

Naïve mind wrote:
ULFsurfer wrote:If that was the sole reason, why then did they not conduct these experiments on random test subjects in secrecy on their home planet?


Perhaps to give Muad'dib a dramatic demonstration that it could be done. And perhaps it really required an individual of unusual loyalty, placed in an unusually stressful situation to accomplish this.

"Atreides," Scytale said, "shall we bargain now?"
Behind him, Paul heard a single hoarse curse. His throat constricted at the suppressed violence in Idaho's voice. Idaho must not break! Scytale would kill the babies!
"To strike a bargain, one requires a thing to sell," Scytale said. "Not so, Atreides? Will you have your Chani back? We can restore her to you. A ghola, Atreides. A ghola with full memory! But we must hurry. Call your friends to bring a cryologic tank to preserve the flesh."
To hear Chani's voice once more, Paul thought. To feel her presence beside me. Ahhh, that's why they gave me Idaho as a ghola, to let me discover how much the re-creation is like the original. But now -- full restoration . . . at their price. I'd be a Tleilaxu tool forevermore. And Chani . . . chained to the same fate by a threat to our children, exposed once more to the Qizarate's plotting . . .


^ The Mentat is correct here. :wink:
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby ULFsurfer » 15 Apr 2013 12:54

If one thing, it certainly makes better storytelling.

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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby georgiedenbro » 06 Aug 2014 11:30

The one thing the Tleilaxu didn't have is the same thing none of the other factions had: The notion of how to achieve real loyalty. Every faction had their own method of either forcing cooperation or else motivating behavior, but the series demonstrates each method had its own weakness.

1) The Corrinos: Kept the Imperium and Landsraad in line with the Imperial Sardaukar. The Sardaukar, themselves, are kept in line with wealth, mansions, and a life like that enjoyed by Great Houses; that, plus the training and discipline they received on Salusa Secundus, which may not have been as binding as religion was for the Fremen but which was a decent second-best. The weakness: Pure force in this way is achieved through conscription and training, but cannot attract converts or foreign peoples to join the cause. Also, as far as the Sardaukar go, wealth and lavish lifestyle is not as great a motivator as is the quest for freedom, as we see in the Fremen. With pure killing force as the primary tool of the Imperium, control lasts only as long as there is no opponent who is stronger; this is almost guaranteed to fail eventually.

2) The Guild: They ensure order by nature of their monopoly and the threat of removing their services. Weakness: Everyone will be looking for a way to break the monopoly, and will do so at the first chance. Also, the monopoly is a two-edged sword, whereby a withdrawal of Guild services would both end space travel and also end the Guild.

3) The Bene Gesserit: Their method is a little more subtle, which is the indoctrination of their disciples into the secret mysteries of the order, much like a religious indoctrination. Once a BG achieves the state of RM no further motivation is needed, as the combined RM memories justify why the path of the BG must be maintained (we don't necessarily know these reasons, in specifics). Weakness: The indoctrination is of an impersonal nature, and each BG involved must find their own reasons to obey the BG mandates. There isn't, therefore, necessarily much of a personal motivation to remain BG other than it was trained into them. Jessica is a good example of the weakness of this method - when a 'good reason' comes along a BG is liable to go her own way.

4) The Harkonnens: Pure force is used, in combination with manipulation, reliance on addiction as a mechanism for control, and use of riches to motivate. In short, any basic tool that will act as a simple motivator in the immediate present. Weaknesses: These types of motivation create hatred against the user, which is dangerous in the long term. Also, these tools aren't 100% reliable and can produce chaotic results. In addition, a fair amount of planning and mental energy must be spent by the Baron simply to guard himself against his own people, which is inefficient. Finally, these methods typically achieve cooperation in the short term but cannot be relied upon for long-term control, and therefore the subjects of these types of coercions must typically be replaced periodically before they become dangerous, thus preventing a long-term senior support staff that can be trusted.

5) The Bene Tleilaxu: They use sterility, their whistling/humming languages, and other direct means as safeguards against insubordination. Also, they have a strict religious code and religiously organized society that creates relative stability in the short term among their people. Weakness: If the slave castes and those subject to the whistling language were to become immune to these mechanisms then they could get out of control, as we see happen with the NFD. Also, it's worth noting that the BT were certainly aware of their own weaknesses and were constantly trying to improve their system of gene manipulation and of governance.

6) The Atreides: Honor system, using fierce loyalty and love to secure the fanatical devotion of both support staff and troops. This method attracts the greatest talent around, and in addition can easily attract a large follower base, such as we saw the potential of in Leto I's first meeting with Stilgar, and then in Paul's final meeting with Liet. It also causes these followers to remain loyal for a long duration or even their entire lives. Weakness: The only inherent weakness in an honor/loyalty system is the potential for a traitor. This is the one thing a mentat spy would be constantly on the lookout for.

So what do the BT, who appear to have everything they want, lack? They lack the one thing that made Leto I and Paul powerful - that elusive trait that made others wants to follow them of their own free will, needing no other motivator or leash other than devotion. The same trait that Thufir believed was why the Emperor turned on Leto, and the trait that turned even a BG away from her own. Even Kynes was shocked at how much he liked Leto. The Atreides honor/love trait, which the books show is well exemplified in Duncan (Duncan the Moral), is certainly one of the things the BT study through the Duncan series. This trait is probably also part of what makes them so attracted to Paul, as a figure, since he demonstrated how just one man, properly constituted, could achieve complete power in the universe (really just a tiny section of the galaxy, as it turns out). The BT strive to perfect their genetic work, most likely to create a 'perfect man', as it were, and no doubt they'd want the Atreides trait included that could command fanatical loyalty. We expect that although the BT were content for a long time to be seen as disgusting, that they did eventually plan to turn that perception on its head and become the Beautiful Tleilaxu once they were ready to launch whatever their final plan was, with their final genetic creation spearheading it.
Last edited by georgiedenbro on 06 Aug 2014 15:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Aug 2014 15:06

Apart from the threat of force, The Emperor could also distribute CHOAM directorships.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby alccode » 10 Nov 2014 23:13

Naïve mind wrote:
ULFsurfer wrote:If that was the sole reason, why then did they not conduct these experiments on random test subjects in secrecy on their home planet?


Perhaps to give Muad'dib a dramatic demonstration that it could be done. And perhaps it really required an individual of unusual loyalty, placed in an unusually stressful situation to accomplish this.

"Atreides," Scytale said, "shall we bargain now?"
Behind him, Paul heard a single hoarse curse. His throat constricted at the suppressed violence in Idaho's voice. Idaho must not break! Scytale would kill the babies!
"To strike a bargain, one requires a thing to sell," Scytale said. "Not so, Atreides? Will you have your Chani back? We can restore her to you. A ghola, Atreides. A ghola with full memory! But we must hurry. Call your friends to bring a cryologic tank to preserve the flesh."
To hear Chani's voice once more, Paul thought. To feel her presence beside me. Ahhh, that's why they gave me Idaho as a ghola, to let me discover how much the re-creation is like the original. But now -- full restoration . . . at their price. I'd be a Tleilaxu tool forevermore. And Chani . . . chained to the same fate by a threat to our children, exposed once more to the Qizarate's plotting . . .


The below is complete speculation but is what comes to mind after reflecting on what's been said.

I believe the explanation for why the BT did this experiment "live" (and not in secrecy on their home planet) is largely to be found in the quote provided by Naïve Mind. I.e., Paul himself explains why the Tleilaxu performed this "experiment" in such a brash fashion - it was to be used as a bargaining chip to buy over, and control, Muad'Dib. It was a gamble, sure, and they probably couldn't do it previously (since Bijaz expressed tremendous surprise when it worked), but they felt they had a decent shot at it with the unique situation that was Duncan's loyalty to Paul.

One possibility is that the BT were desperate in wresting control of the Imperium from Muad'Dib, and this "skunk works" project of gholas that can recover the memories of their former life, which may have originally been intended as a platform for immortality of the masters, happened to be adopted as the "best shot" for gaining the upper hand on Paul.

On the other hand, it may also be that they did not a priori have ghola immortality as an explicit goal that they then "applied" to the problem of Muad'Dib but, rather, that they from the outset wished only to control Paul, and came up with this crazy scheme to see if it would work. They came up with it because they noted the extreme loyalty Duncan exhibited to Paul. It may have, indeed, only come up as a reaction to having captured/killed Duncan in the first place during the incidents in the first book, and not before (the interaction, motivations, and dealings between Shaddam/Sardaukar and the BT being an unexplored area here).

I think it is very difficult to differentiate between the two alternatives. What is clear is that in any case, the Tleilaxu did suspect or surmise that gholas could reclaim memories of their previous lives, as Scytale indicated when he started bargaining with Paul:

"So it's truly Duncan Idaho of the Atreides," Scytale said. "We found the lever! A ghola can regain his past."


That emphasized "can" indicates that this was a theory or hypothesis the Tleilaxu were attempting to pursue. The part about "we found the lever!" seems to indicate that they had been working on this for a while, and knew that some kind of lever, or trigger, was needed to have the gholas reclaim their memories.

There is no remaining doubt that this ghola memory reclamation was planned all along when Bijaz utters his exclamation when it fell to him to bargain with Paul:

"Duncan, is it?" Bijaz asked. "Is it truly Duncan Idaho?"
"It is," Idaho said. "I remember."
"Then Scytale's plan succeeded!"


My conclusion is that, although the Tleilaxu most certainly had a plan to force the Hayt-ghola to reclaim his past, we do not possess sufficient information to differentiate between "Scytale's plan" being the reclamation of Hayt's memories as Duncan being devised from the beginning as a way to bargain with Paul, or whether this project was previously existing in some form. In any case, it is clear that once they figured out how to trigger memory reclamation, the masters started using it themselves from this point onward.

EDIT: sorry, edited this heavily a few minutes after posting since I realized my initial formulation was most definitely very wrong.

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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby lotek » 11 Nov 2014 07:32

It's plans within plans, again.

"The idea that their "conspiracy attempt" to assassinate Muad'dib was merely just a way for them to bring their Immortal-Ghola prototype to fruition. "

They had more than one egg in that basket, any outcome was something they strived for.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Nov 2014 07:46

The next few lines emphasize that this was a part of the plan all along:

"Scytale is dead," Paul said.
"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I
grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts -- all of them. It needs only the
right trigger."


I think it was a win/win plan for the Tleilaxu, depending on successfully restoring Idaho's memories. Even if they didn't trap Paul, they have the secret to ghola restoration immortality.

Bijaz was obviously the prototype Tleilaxu Master.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 20:47

lotek wrote:It's plans within plans, again.

"The idea that their "conspiracy attempt" to assassinate Muad'dib was merely just a way for them to bring their Immortal-Ghola prototype to fruition. "

They had more than one egg in that basket, any outcome was something they strived for.


That's exactly what it was, it was a situation where they win either way. If Hayt kills Paul, then they are rid of his control and the old status quo can return. If Hayt doesn't kill Paul, then they can control him through the Chani plan, plus their own ghola technology advances.

-----

inhuien wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Lundse wrote:PS: I still think, by the way, that they only became a full caste society with immortal masters after the events of Dune Messiah.


Probably, but that's over 5000 years from DM to CH:D.
Serially immortal rather than continuous, that was one of the goals of their last Ghola project.


A Thing of Eternity wrote:I also think it's quite possible that the whole "master" caste didn't exist (or at least not in the form we see later) until some decent amount of time after the events of DM. They certainly weren't immortal before that point, whether they looked like the masters of later books is anyone's guess, or whether they were even referred to as such - the FD of DM seem to be much more autonomous than those seen later on in the series, so it may have been a little more egalitarian. That said, I think the whole "tank" situation had potentially been going on since long before the time the first book takes place.


I agree, this makes sense, the serial Masters have causes stagnation on Tleilax. I'm always surprised in Dune Messiah, Scytale, a Face Dancer is so much more multi-dimensonal than Waff and his namesake in the later books, yet the BG are so much more multi-dimensional in those later books. Leto's rule and the subsequent times have managed to cause the Bene Gesserit to flourish with personality and the Bene Tleilax to flatten. I think the ghola Masters are a huge part of that.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby georgiedenbro » 05 Feb 2015 21:20

JasonJD48 wrote:I agree, this makes sense, the serial Masters have causes stagnation on Tleilax. I'm always surprised in Dune Messiah, Scytale, a Face Dancer is so much more multi-dimensonal than Waff and his namesake in the later books, yet the BG are so much more multi-dimensional in those later books. Leto's rule and the subsequent times have managed to cause the Bene Gesserit to flourish with personality and the Bene Tleilax to flatten. I think the ghola Masters are a huge part of that.


Although it may be heresy to suggest, I have to wonder whether Waff being lame was intentional, or whether FH just didn't have that exciting a role for him to play in the book and therefore wasn't inspired to make him interesting. Since the BT split up their race into castes and specialized each one over time, therefore playing up the strengths of each, it's possible this division of specialty effectively weakened them since it meant none of them would be well-rounded any more. Another matter to consider (about which I should make a separate thread) is the religious order introduced to the BT for the purposes of control. After a few thousand years of this religion it's possible that it might have made them dumber overall, since the trappings of religion would have trickled into their brains and really changed them.
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Re: The implications of the Tleilaxu having *everything*

Postby JasonJD48 » 06 Feb 2015 00:14

georgiedenbro wrote:
JasonJD48 wrote:I agree, this makes sense, the serial Masters have causes stagnation on Tleilax. I'm always surprised in Dune Messiah, Scytale, a Face Dancer is so much more multi-dimensonal than Waff and his namesake in the later books, yet the BG are so much more multi-dimensional in those later books. Leto's rule and the subsequent times have managed to cause the Bene Gesserit to flourish with personality and the Bene Tleilax to flatten. I think the ghola Masters are a huge part of that.


Although it may be heresy to suggest, I have to wonder whether Waff being lame was intentional, or whether FH just didn't have that exciting a role for him to play in the book and therefore wasn't inspired to make him interesting. Since the BT split up their race into castes and specialized each one over time, therefore playing up the strengths of each, it's possible this division of specialty effectively weakened them since it meant none of them would be well-rounded any more. Another matter to consider (about which I should make a separate thread) is the religious order introduced to the BT for the purposes of control. After a few thousand years of this religion it's possible that it might have made them dumber overall, since the trappings of religion would have trickled into their brains and really changed them.


I think the Tleilaxu were a microcosm of what would happen to humanity if they failed to advance. The Tleilaxu are human, but they separated themselves, insulated themselves and most importantly, kept themselves static. The same masters for millennia mean the same ideas. The religious fanaticism kept them confined to their homeworld making them an easy target.

Think of Scytale being the last BT Master, if it was Chapterhouse that was destroyed instead of Tleilax, would there only be one RM left? of course not.
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