Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

shishi wrote:I think that the Tleilaxu initiated these two projects with two different but related goals in mind.
The conflict that might have taken place after Chapterhouse and been called Kralizec, may have been a symbolic struggle of man vs. machine, or more importantly human nature vs. mechanistic nature, as exemplified by the refinement of these two projects.
The conflict would be between gholas and a pervasive network of face dancers alone, and no machines or robots in the traditional sense would be involved.

The New Face Dancers described in Heretics that are able to copy any person simply my touching another, may have been essentially machines, more specifically mechanistic creatures which are able to alter their appearance and copy anything, including themselves. A typical creature arising from humans would not be able to read what is in a person's mind just by touching them, these New Face Dancers have sensors or vibrational resonators that are able to tell the shape of a human mind, and be able to reform and copy it, but not aware of what is the meaning of what they are copying.

What about Sharing? Even though RMs are not your average human, they still are human and function within human limitations.
How do you know how FD copy personas? The old FD model could still copy part of a mind, the NFD were perfect nerve simpatico copies, to the point they believed they were that person(cf high priest Tuek)
So even if they don't "understand" it, by becoming that person and acting so that no one knows isn't that the same thing in the end?

Also, I believe the face dancers would have tried to create a Paolo ghola, (this name does sound like it could have come from Frank Herbert)NO IT DOESN'T! And no they wouldn't... Paolo is mcdune bulshit! or perhaps a face dancer of Paul Atreides, in their mechanical efforts to copy the past, by producing what they believed to be an answer to present problems by copying the past. It is also clever that since Paul Atreides was the answer to the problems during the original Dune crisis, which he kinda precipitated by his actions... only because he was unexpected, yet they think they can solve their problems by copying the unexpectedness, when in fact it is just a copy and is so not unexpected, and can't be the answer they want. I am sure Frank wanted to put this point in the book, by making some of the characters believe the answer to problems was simply to copy great people(no that was the hacks' answer) of whom regular humans can't seem to copy but face dancers are capable of doing Huh?. However, how the face dancers would get to make a copy of Paul I am not sure. Perhaps they would find some way to steal cells from the no-ship(what happened to the magic touch?) , as the face-dancers seem familiar with inter-dimensional networks(they don't teleport though, this is not star trek) and they would probably want to find some way to reproduce Paul. Perhaps the No-ship sisterhood would succeed in raising a Paul ghola, but later a face dancer either overtly or secretly kills him and copies his appearance.
Have you been reading nudune stuff lately?
I think FH planned to run wild with gholas in the next Dune book,(by ending his series with the words "Gholas, he's welcome to them..." possibly exploring what happens when two awakened gholas exist at the same time,(now that I've always wondered about) using two unawakened gholas together to reawake each other through themselves, (That's sick )and would have probably revealed how gholas are able to see into their past incarnations.
The awakening of Duncan done by Miles Teg in Heretics was probably a clever fake climax written by FH, as it was not really necessary.You border on heresy mate It was necessary to create the mirror situation of Duncan awakening young Teg and all the moral questions raised by that. Once Duncan got into a situation like bonding with Murbella, he would have learned of all his past experiences, including the original Duncan that helped young Paul, and the awakening that Teg went to great pains to undertake was entirely unnecessary. Only with that foreknowledge though.

I also think that FH wanted to have an idea of a network, and this network idea probably provides some answers as to how people can be aware of people in the past, or previous incarnations as in the case of gholas.
Duncan was truly another Kwisatz Haderach Now that is heresy, Duncan is NOT a KH or a supadupahero, if it comes to that the closest would be Teg, bt he doesn't have full prescience, only a short term vision of potential danger. because he would be the first person to understand how to use this network, but his control over it would trouble him greatly. Wot? No one but Daniel and Marty uses the tachyon net as it is called. Having the no-ship in another universe will probably force them to find out how this network may connect the "multiverse", which is mulled over at one point in Chapterhouse. When? At times they may be even to see what is going on in the seemingly close off universe of Dune, they would be able to hide themselves but also capable of observing everywhere. Now you lost me...

shishi wrote: a Paolo ghola, (this name does sound like it could have come from Frank Herbert)

baseless opinion: I think FH planned to run wild with gholas in the next Dune book ...
clever rebuttal, w/ quotation: (by ending his series with the words "Gholas, he's welcome to them..." )

shishi wrote:I think that Frank Herbert did not necessarily want his books to be looked at one way, and always wanted to have the door open to interpretation.
He seemed to want to find ways to shock his readers, with a new development, or at least try to stimulate their imagination as much as possible with the clues he gives.

He still gave some sort of direction, especially concerning what he did not want his readers to embark on. That's why I like SF so much, because even if it's far fetched it has if not rules at least guidelines. Without those, what you have is perfectly demonstrated in the "works" of the KJ(A)B. Something that doesn't bring you noble purpose...

The way that things have always worked before, as is assumed, may not be true. Instead, the way things were thought to work may not apply in all circumstances, and a new explanation that is very different is developed that will explain more, but even this explanation could not be entirely accurate.

Irony strikes again huh?

I have fascination with both Herbert and Kubrick because they both had very different ideas than traditional writers/directors and were kind of reclusive, Herbert not as much but his philosophies and knowledge were very unique, and he must have extensively researched in all kinds of hard to find places when writing his books, similar to Kubrick. Also their last works incorporate sexual themes, and were not necessary entirely finished, and what they may have intended with these works is mysterious, but they are filled with symbols and clues which they obviously thought hard about.

Eyes Wide Shut is one of the most mysterious films ever made, and for some reason very overlooked.

I haven't seen it ànd quite frankly I am not too interested by the themes apparently explored.

Unfortunately very few people seem to discuss in it literature, what you find in published books is often blurb-ish in nature, and offers shallow interpretations of the plot, or concentrates on the fidelity issue. It is very difficult at times to get anyone to discuss the film seriously elsewhere, as they are either unwavering conspiricy theorists, or only focus on the surface meaning of the plot or the empty erotic nature of the film that disappointed them.

The film is also hard to discuss because it is so visual, but in fact this makes it a good film because film should be about images.
Sexually-themed films are forced by their nature to concentrate on interpreting things visually.

Eyes Wide Shut had the longest shooting schedule of any film ever made, a year and a half, and everyone involved with the filming had to sign very strict agreements of confidentiality, which is typical with Kubrick, but this film seemed to be particularly airtight.

Kubrick is fascinating because by the end of his career he could basically make his film however he wanted, and the studio would release his film. He is a hybrid avant garde/mainstream film director, but I think eventually became a type of pure art house film director, releasing his films through mainstream channels. When he was making Eyes Wide Shut I think there was no pressure on Kubrick to bend to anyone except the pressure to eventually finish it.

As far as conspiracy theories go as to if Kubrick was espousing his secret knowledge of cults, being Masonic or what else, I think their can be two ways of looking at it.

Kubrick did have inner knowledge or was involved with cults, and this film was his attempt to show the public through a mainstream Hollywood movie starring two very popular actors, with the perceived premise of a highly sexual/erotic tour de force, what goes on behind closed doors, or at least show that there are people behind closed doors. He entitles the movie Eyes Wide Shut, a phrase that has a curious resonance to it, and is never actually spoken in the film.

Or, Kubrick when making the film, as he usually does, extensively researches every aspect of it, and finds all types of public knowledge or myths of cults, and incorporates them into the movie. He even subtly hides references though they may not actually be meant to suggest that they are a part of our reality, and also decides to shoot at certain set locations that are related to myths about cults.

The second option appears more likely, but it is also the easiest one to tackle.
What is suspicious, is that almost all of Kubrick's movies, especially from Lolita and later on, are done in a very allegorical manner full of symbols, and are also meant to be open to interpretation to the viewer. This is a very Masonic model of thinking. Also, Kubrick's movies are often shot in very geometrically precise manners.

I really do not know what to believe, but I think why it is so interesting, is because there is so much thought behind the film, and so much meaning to it, even if it is hard to find ways to explain it.
You should create your own thread.

SandRider wrote:you ain't reading none of the stuff in betwixt yer own posts, are ya, Son ?

Freakzilla wrote:Kralizec was between GEoD and HoD.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because
of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after
Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."
~CoD

shishi wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:Kralizec was between GEoD and HoD.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because
of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after
Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."
~CoD

That quote does not necessary mean that Kralizec took place soon after Leto II died and before the worms came back. Kralizec could take place any time after Leto II died.
I know that feels odd, but it makes logical sense.

SadisticCynic wrote:

shishi wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:Kralizec was between GEoD and HoD.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because
of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after
Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."
~CoD

That quote does not necessary mean that Kralizec took place soon after Leto II died and before the worms came back. Kralizec could take place any time after Leto II died.
I know that feels odd, but it makes logical sense.

It does not make logical sense.

"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years..."

This says there will be a scarcity of spice during Leto's reign due to the lack of sandworms.

"But there'll be abundance after Kralizec"

This implies that spice will not be (as) scarce once Kralizec has ended.

"The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand"

This implies that Leto must die before the worms return. The worms are the source of spice (recall that when Ghanima says this, the Bene Tleilax have not discovered how to replicate melange).

It therefore follows that Kralizec must have occurred between Leto's death and the return of the worms, as Freak claimed.

I know that feels odd, but it makes logical sense.

shishi wrote:The film is also hard to discuss because it is so visual, but in fact this makes it a good film because film should be about images.

shishi wrote:Also, I believe the face dancers would have tried to create a Paolo ghola, (this name does sound like it could have come from Frank Herbert) or perhaps a face dancer of Paul Atreides, in their mechanical efforts to copy the past, by producing what they believed to be an answer to present problems by copying the past.