Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Freakzilla wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:I don't think that references to the "original" eliminate Hayt. He is still the original Duncan.

Whatever, I don't consider Hayt, a reanimated corpse, the original.

That's clearly not who Leto wanted.

No, but at the same time it doesn't explain AToE's quotes.

Serkanner wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:I don't think that references to the "original" eliminate Hayt. He is still the original Duncan.

Whatever, I don't consider Hayt, a reanimated corpse, the original.

That's clearly not who Leto wanted.

No, but at the same time it doesn't explain AToE's quotes.

I wasn't trying to, merely pointing out that FH said Leto wanted the original and was convinced that he was. That's good enough for me.

If Hayt was a re-animated corpse, and not grown as a new body from a few Idaho cells, then he would still be the original in body.
The fact that not all Duncan gholas were mentats only speaks to my understanding that 'mentat' is a function which has to be trained

MrFlibble wrote:....the Mentat potential in Duncan could be either developed into full talent with the restoration of the original memory, or it could be suppressed to never come to fruition.

as has already been noted.
So I vote Hayt.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Who's the one vote for him not being Hayt?

That was my vote.

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:If Hayt was a re-animated corpse, and not grown as a new body from a few Idaho cells, then he would still be the original in body.
The fact that not all Duncan gholas were mentats only speaks to my understanding that 'mentat' is a function which has to be trained

MrFlibble wrote:....the Mentat potential in Duncan could be either developed into full talent with the restoration of the original memory, or it could be suppressed to never come to fruition.

as has already been noted.
So I vote Hayt.

Me too, although I have no idea how Frank Herbert would answer this question (EDIT: flip-flopping after reading "the original" quotes).

For me, the question is whether to believe in a huge mistake or one mistaken detail.

D Pope wrote:For me, the question is whether to believe in a huge mistake or one mistaken detail.

Well, as expected, Freak brought the bloody cavalry - I now concede that with all those "originals" he quoted, as well as Duncan in GEoD being surprised that the BT could restore ghola memories (that's HUGE if you think about it, much bigger than the "originals" quotes), this is now a really big fuckup by FH either way.

I still vote Hayt because as Nekhurn said, those memories of his are important to the story, whereas him not being Hayt is in no way that I can see important to the story.

But this is looking a LOT closer to a tie as far as which is a bigger mistake. I still say that FH meaning for him to not be Hayt would be the more extreme mistake, however this is no longer a giant mistake vs a small one.

Now this is a giant mistake vs a merely big one.



Thanks quotemaster Freak - I had a feeling you were holding out on chiming in because you were going to bring it. You never dissapoint.

Who's the 3rd "not Hayt"? Cynic?

I voted for Hayt, but I think there is one more option, however bizarre, weird and unusual it might seem. In the last two books, Duncan has all the memories of the previous Duncans, although he does not have all the cells from them. Why not suppose, by means of analogy, that the original, pre-Hayt Duncan ghola could also possess some of Hayt's memories? Sure, that would imply some supernatural way of transferring those memories, but that seems to be the same with the final Duncan as well.

Also, I do not think that the references to the "original" cells definitely exclude the possibility that it was Hayt. After all, Hayt was just a reanimated Duncan, while all the later gholas were cloned from his cells. I guess if a ghola were produced from the cells of another ghola, only then it would no longer be the "original" one.

[Edit] Just read A Thing of Eternity suggesting the same thing in another thread

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:If Hayt was a re-animated corpse, and not grown as a new body from a few Idaho cells, then he would still be the original in body.
The fact that not all Duncan gholas were mentats only speaks to my understanding that 'mentat' is a function which has to be trained.

Even if he remembered his Hayt memories? Wouldn't he remember being trained as a Mentat?

In Dune doesn't FH write that mentats have to be trained from a young age to prepare their brains for a proper way of thinking? I'm curious how the Tleilaxu accomplished this. If this was something that had to be done over and over then Hayt may have had his memories as a Mentat but wouldn't have been able to function as one. This makes more sense to me now and maybe it's not as big a fuck up as I thought. If the Bene Tleilax didn't provide each ghola with the proper preparation then he would only be a non-Mentat with some Mentat memories. Right?

Nekhrun wrote:If this was something that had to be done over and over then Hayt may have had his memories as a Mentat but wouldn't have been able to function as one. This makes more sense to me now and maybe it's not as big a fuck up as I thought. If the Bene Tleilax didn't provide each ghola with the proper preparation then he would only be a non-Mentat with some Mentat memories. Right?

I think that this is true. I think that gholas with mentat predecessors need to have the same kind of training Paul had to fully realize their mentat capabilities.

merkin muffley wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:If this was something that had to be done over and over then Hayt may have had his memories as a Mentat but wouldn't have been able to function as one. This makes more sense to me now and maybe it's not as big a fuck up as I thought. If the Bene Tleilax didn't provide each ghola with the proper preparation then he would only be a non-Mentat with some Mentat memories. Right?

I think that this is true. I think that gholas with mentat predecessors need to have the same kind of training Paul had to fully realize their mentat capabilities.

I am tempted to agree. While one may have the predisposition to become a mentat (probably genetics and perhaps certain early behavioral characteristics?) the 'software' would still need to be put in place. The quotes about Paul's training indicate this needs to be done from an early age. A ghola brought back may have genetic memories but I'm not convinced he would have the same skills immediately, although such things (e.g. ornithopter flight, fighting...) would feel familiar. For all of these things some training, both physical and mental, is required.

Nekhrun wrote:

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:If Hayt was a re-animated corpse, and not grown as a new body from a few Idaho cells, then he would still be the original in body.
The fact that not all Duncan gholas were mentats only speaks to my understanding that 'mentat' is a function which has to be trained.

Even if he remembered his Hayt memories? Wouldn't he remember being trained as a Mentat?

In Dune doesn't FH write that mentats have to be trained from a young age to prepare their brains for a proper way of thinking? I'm curious how the Tleilaxu accomplished this. If this was something that had to be done over and over then Hayt may have had his memories as a Mentat but wouldn't have been able to function as one. This makes more sense to me now and maybe it's not as big a fuck up as I thought. If the Bene Tleilax didn't provide each ghola with the proper preparation then he would only be a non-Mentat with some Mentat memories. Right?

Duncan = Hayt. Hayt = Duncan. Once his memories were restored, Hayt was Duncan. Original body repaired to life, original mind repaired as well.

Therefore I vote 3: Same Person.

Mentat training apparently can come from natural sources (Paul) as well as artificial (Tleilaxu, Hayt).
Therefore just because Hayt was a mentat doesn't mean that all of his gholas will be. the tleilaxu have to mentat him to do it and Leto said no. Perhaps Duncan had some of the natural requirements for mentat training but didn't get singled out on Geidi Prime.

I think the Duncan "experiment" was a way for Leto to sort of do a loophole around being a KH, gaining all the benefits without the drawbacks. When Duncan eventually regained all of his memories from all his lives he became somewhat like Leto. A collated KH if you will instead of a genetic one.

These are good points & explain a lot. However you wrap your mind around the issue, I congratulate you all for your passion & reason! Threads like this are definetly the coolest part of being a member here, thanks everyone!

I still like the idea that FH had something in mind that would explain the Duncans that he hasn't mentioned. We all know he was a carefull fellow, there has to be an 'outside the box' sort of idea, simple & elegant, that ties it all up. We also know he went to great pains to share just enough info for us to get the idea & fill in the story. This has to be one of those times, it's too big to be a mistake.

merkin muffley wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:If this was something that had to be done over and over then Hayt may have had his memories as a Mentat but wouldn't have been able to function as one. This makes more sense to me now and maybe it's not as big a fuck up as I thought. If the Bene Tleilax didn't provide each ghola with the proper preparation then he would only be a non-Mentat with some Mentat memories. Right?

I think that this is true. I think that gholas with mentat predecessors need to have the same kind of training Paul had to fully realize their mentat capabilities.

I don't see why the ghola wouldn't have FULL memories of all the necessary training though, this makes no sense.

Ampoliros wrote: Duncan = Hayt. Hayt = Duncan. Once his memories were restored, Hayt was Duncan. Original body repaired to life, original mind repaired as well.

Therefore I vote 3: Same Person.

There is no "3", of course Hayt is Duncan, but cells taken from Duncan before he became Hayt would not have any Hayt memories. It's either the cells came from before reanimation or after, there is no third option.

MrFlibble wrote:I voted for Hayt, but I think there is one more option, however bizarre, weird and unusual it might seem. In the last two books, Duncan has all the memories of the previous Duncans, although he does not have all the cells from them. Why not suppose, by means of analogy, that the original, pre-Hayt Duncan ghola could also possess some of Hayt's memories? Sure, that would imply some supernatural way of transferring those memories, but that seems to be the same with the final Duncan as well.

Also, I do not think that the references to the "original" cells definitely exclude the possibility that it was Hayt. After all, Hayt was just a reanimated Duncan, while all the later gholas were cloned from his cells. I guess if a ghola were produced from the cells of another ghola, only then it would no longer be the "original" one.

[Edit] Just read A Thing of Eternity suggesting the same thing in another thread

I don't actually suggest this, I just bring the idea up. The problem is that if this were what had happened then half of the book would have been about Leto trying to find out how it was possible, but he doesn't bat an eyelash at any of it, suggesting that nothing magical has happened.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

merkin muffley wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:If this was something that had to be done over and over then Hayt may have had his memories as a Mentat but wouldn't have been able to function as one. This makes more sense to me now and maybe it's not as big a fuck up as I thought. If the Bene Tleilax didn't provide each ghola with the proper preparation then he would only be a non-Mentat with some Mentat memories. Right?

I think that this is true. I think that gholas with mentat predecessors need to have the same kind of training Paul had to fully realize their mentat capabilities.

I don't see why the ghola wouldn't have FULL memories of all the necessary training though, this makes no sense.

It could be something they do to the brain to allow for a specific type of training that can replace the training since birth method that someone like Paul might receive. If his brain's software wasn't tampered with then you'd get Duncan/Hayt with all the memories but a brain that could not function as a Mentat. If he gets the upgrade then he can function as a mentat.

It reminds me of an old Star Trek: The Next Generation episode where Barclay was given some extra brain capabilities by an advanced race and when he served his purpose, the memories of what he did were still there, but the ability to function at the same level had passed.

I don't know if I'm making much sense as I've just thought of this potential solution to the problem today and it's still in development.

A Thing of Eternity wrote: I don't see why the ghola wouldn't have FULL memories of all the necessary training though, this makes no sense.

It could be something they do to the brain to allow for a specific type of training that can replace the training since birth method that someone like Paul might receive. If his brain's software wasn't tampered with then you'd get Duncan/Hayt with all the memories but a brain that could not function as a Mentat. If he gets the upgrade then he can function as a mentat.[/quote]


I still think this quote MrFlibble found about the Teg ghola is pretty strong evidence that mentat capabilities aren't automatically realized...

She saw immediately what had happened, Mentat training coming out in him without his knowing. Best not explore that yet.

Even if an awakened Duncan has been awakened to full memories, and has even retained muscle memory (Hayt's flying style in Dune Messiah), I still think the above quote suggests that some training is required to unify his capabilities into mentat functioning.

I'm on shaky ground here, though. I feel like I need to think more about what exactly happens to a ghola when it's awakened. Does a Duncan suddenly pick up where the original left off when it's awakened? Couldn't a Duncan that was physically inferior to the original Duncan be awakened?* If the muscles would need to be trained to match the original Duncan, wouldn't it also mean that his mind would need to be trained? So, even if GE Duncan had conscious memories and muscle memories from ghola training, wouldn't he still have to do the "exercises" to become a functioning mentat?

It would still be strange that GE Duncan never mentions his mentat training, though. I always feel like I'm missing something when I talk about this.



*What about Clumsy Duncan from the DE (just kidding)

D Pope wrote:These are good points & explain a lot. However you wrap your mind around the issue, I congratulate you all for your passion & reason! Threads like this are definetly the coolest part of being a member here, thanks everyone!

I still like the idea that FH had something in mind that would explain the Duncans that he hasn't mentioned. We all know he was a carefull fellow, there has to be an 'outside the box' sort of idea, simple & elegant, that ties it all up. We also know he went to great pains to share just enough info for us to get the idea & fill in the story. This has to be one of those times, it's too big to be a mistake.

There was definitely something weird going on with Duncan i.e. seeing the net, having memories without the required cells and that flash of possible prescience in Children of Dune. That last one however is a bit weak in my mind; it seems unlikely Frank had all the Duncan things thought out before God Emperor of Dune.

As Alia said guards, Idaho put a hand over his Tleilaxu eyes, trying to
prevent the demanding involvement which swept over him. It was Rhajia, the
movement of Infinity as expressed by Life, the latent cup of total immersion in
mentat awareness which lay in wait for every mentat. It threw his awareness onto
the universe like a net, falling, defining the shapes within it. He saw the
twins crouching in darkness while giant claws raked the air about them.
"No," he whispered.
"What?" Alia looked at him as though surprised to find him still there.
He took his hand from his eyes.
"The garments that House Corrino sent?" he asked. "Have they been sent on to
the twins?"
"Of course," Irulan said. "They're perfectly safe."
"No one's going to try for the twins at Sietch Tabr," Alia said. "Not with
all of those Stilgar-trained guards around."
Idaho stared at her. He had no particular datum to reinforce an argument
based on mentat computation, but he knew. He knew. This thing he'd experienced
came very close to the visionary power which Paul had known. Neither Irulan nor
Alia would believe it, coming from him.

This still can't be right, I get what you guys are trying to say, and it's not totally out of the question if there were indeed some kind of physical on-switch that needed to be flipped - but it's a stretch. Those quotes really just point to Paul starting to behave as a mentat subconsciously before his training was complete, it doesn't really allude to everything I think you think it does.

Also - in later books, when Duncan regains his memories from all previous incarnations, he becomes a mentat. No need for retraining or rewiring or anything (I know that was a bit different of a remembering for him, but same concept).

Nowhere is it ever suggested that I can see that being a mentat requires more than training, and training is something that would be passed through to a ghola.

Nowhere is it ever suggested that I can see that being a mentat requires more than training, and training is something that would be passed through to a ghola.

The memory of the training would pass through. You would still need to be retrained, whether by your own hand or another's.

I don't think that helps though, since if Duncan/Hayt had the memories of being a Mentat surely he would have retrained himself.

On the other hand, he was a Mentat in several incarnations, and since Leto discouraged Mentat schools where did he learn it? From Leto? From the Tleilaxu (that would have disastrous results, they wouldn't do it more than once surely!)? Or from his own memories?

But wouldn't the Mentat mind created by the training be what was reawakened with the memories in the ghola?

SandChigger wrote:But wouldn't the Mentat mind created by the training be what was reawakened with the memories in the ghola?

Yeah, exactly.

I'm sorry you guys, you're not communicating what you're trying to say very well. He's already had the training, there's no evidence for him needing to be retrained (remember I gave the example already where later in the series he does not need to be retrained) and I'm simply not following your logic as to why exactly he'd need to be retrained.

Other than what Nekhrun said about some sort of physical change to the brain (which is never mentioed by FH and is pure speculation) there's no reason at all he would need to be retrained.n

SandChigger wrote:But wouldn't the Mentat mind created by the training be what was reawakened with the memories in the ghola?

Hmm... If we used a cadaver then I would agree, however the gholas after Hayt are regrown from cells, so they won't necessarily have the 'forces' applied to the brain's plasticity (I'm being extremely loose here with my terminology by the way). Since the ancestral (or in this case ghola) memories are stored in the nerve cells, is it necessary to have identical brain structure to the previous incarnation? I propose that this is not so, and therefore a ghola grown from Hayt's cells would not have the mental training required to be an instantaneous Mentat. He would however have the memory of the training, and could teach himself again if necessary.

For some reason I recall Duncan teaching himself something from his memories in Chapterhouse: Dune, but I can't remember what and so far I've had no luck with searching, so that may be a mistaken impression...

You got in there before me Thing so this isn't directly in response to you but it may make my point a bit clearer.