Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Image
    Master Geneticists and Sufi-Zensunnis

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original?

Definitely a clone made from cells of Hayt.
13
62%
Definitely a clone made directly from cells of Duncan's corpse.
8
38%
 
Total votes: 21

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 13:32

Evidence has been shown to support each side of this, and whichever is actually the case it is certain that FH made a mistake.

Obviously I vote that he was a clone of Hayt, from cells taken at some point during his life during DM/CoD but before his death (no way they could have gotten those cells).

Please vote and if you feel like it give a summary of why you think this (unless you've already summed it up in other threads of course). I've enabled the "change vote possible" thingy too if anyone changes opinions.
Image

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 13:36

My vote goes to Hayt, the lesser mistake.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

User avatar
Apjak
Posts: 518
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 12:06
Location: Kansas City

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Apjak » 09 Jul 2010 13:55

I want an option to vote that the were made from multiple batches of cells, including Duncan and Hayt.
I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 14:03

Apjak wrote:I want an option to vote that the were made from multiple batches of cells, including Duncan and Hayt.


Sure, but on what evidence? Such a combo would be unnecessary and asfar as I can tell not supported by the story - A Hayt clone would have ALL of the original Duncan's memories, so what would be the advantage of adding more of the originals back? Also, such a combo would still not explain the 1 thing that points to him not being Hayt, that he is not a (or apears not to be a) mentat in GEoD.
Image

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2818
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Serkanner » 09 Jul 2010 14:03

I voted Duncan because of the scene when Hayt is killed by Stilgar. I assume that after the killing Hayt's water would be spread upon the sand and there were no Tleilaxu near to gather cells. The later Duncans, in my opinion, therefore were created with the cells the Tleilaxu already had in their possession. I have always accepted the mistake by Frank and haven't given it much value because it isn't really important to the plot. Besides ... how many mistakes can we find made by Frank and compare that with the two idiots?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 14:19

[quote="Apjak" ]I want an option to vote that the were made from multiple batches of cells, including Duncan and Hayt.[/quote]

Pshaw! They were the same person. I just learned yesterday that Hayt was the reanimated corps of Duncan, it wouldn't have made a difference if they used cells from both. There was just a span of a few years when Hayt didn't know he was Duncan.

The crux of the dispute is, in GEoD, Duncan remembers the birth of the twins at which time he was a mentat. In GEoD ch.6 thread, Freak says this was a mistake & Duncan should not have remembered these things as he was a ghola from the original Duncan, not Hayt. So basically, as Chig pointed out, when were the sample cells taken? Thing & I propose that it's a smaller mistake for FH to have intended the ghola to come from Hayt, & for some reson to have forgotten the mentat ablilities.

How bout it Thing? Does that cover it?

Can't get it right, I don't want to delete, so reposted below.
Last edited by D Pope on 09 Jul 2010 14:24, edited 2 times in total.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 14:20

Serkanner wrote:I voted Duncan because of the scene when Hayt is killed by Stilgar. I assume that after the killing Hayt's water would be spread upon the sand and there were no Tleilaxu near to gather cells. The later Duncans, in my opinion, therefore were created with the cells the Tleilaxu already had in their possession. I have always accepted the mistake by Frank and haven't given it much value because it isn't really important to the plot. Besides ... how many mistakes can we find made by Frank and compare that with the two idiots?


Do note that when I say he is a clone of Hayt, I do mean from cells that the BT gathered before his death, because yes, there's no way they could have gotten their hands on his corpse.

My argument is that either way FH made a mistake. If he meant for him to be Hayt, then he forgot to make him a mentat. But, if the mistake is the one you're saying it is, then it's not just 1 mistake. It is pages and pages and pages of mistakes - it's F-n GIGANTIC. It would almost be KJABH in scale in my opnion.

Duncan in GEoD remembers the twins (has to be Hayt), recognises Muad'dib's knife (has to be Hayt) and doesn't need to be brought up to speed on Paul becoming Muad'dib - he already knows about Muad'dib (has to be Hayt). There were several other Hayt-only memories I ran across during this re-read (I'm half way through now). I'm going to try and post all the ones I find from this point on as well.
Image

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 14:21

D Pope wrote:
How bout it Thing? Does that cover it?


Darn, we were typing at the same time. Yes, that covers the main argument.
Image

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby merkin muffley » 09 Jul 2010 14:22

This whole thing confuses the hell out of me.
Hayt is the re-animated corpse of the original Duncan, so maybe that explains why GE Duncan would remember the twins.
However, Leto II was adamant that his Duncans be unaltered by the Tleilaxu, and Hayt is definitely an altered, mentat version of Duncan.
If GE Duncan is a clone of Hayt, which would be the lesser FH mistake, it's still misleading as hell to have GE Duncan refer to the original Duncan's death at the hand of the Harkonnens as "my death." I realize a clone from Hayt would remember the first time he died, it's very confusing to refer to Hayt's memories of [the original Duncan's] death without ever putting it into context with the fact he was re-animated after that death.
Also, we have to assume that Stilgar rendered Hayt immediately after killing him, so the idea that GE Duncan comes from Hayt assumes that cells were secretly collected during Hayt's lifetime, and there's no reference to that happening in GEoD (right?).

I'm voting Hayt because it's stated explicitly that GE Duncan remembers the twins, and technically it still works that a Hayt clone remembers Original Duncan's death (even though it's misleading). Leto II doesn't want an altered Duncan, but technically Hayt is Original Duncan re-animated. Then, it's still a significant mistake that GE Duncan is not a mentat. When you break it down, it's very unclear. At least, to me it is.

The tooth is subject to too much analgesic. (Some Idiot at Dunenovels)
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 14:23

Apjak wrote:I want an option to vote that the were made from multiple batches of cells, including Duncan and Hayt.



Pshaw! They were the same person. I just learned yesterday that Hayt was the reanimated corps of Duncan, it wouldn't have made a difference if they used cells from both. There was just a span of a few years when Hayt didn't know he was Duncan.

The crux of the dispute is, in GEoD, Duncan remembers the birth of the twins at which time he was a mentat. In GEoD ch.6 thread, Freak says this was a mistake & Duncan should not have remembered these things as he was a ghola from the original Duncan, not Hayt. So basically, as Chig pointed out, when were the sample cells taken? Thing & I propose that it's a smaller mistake for FH to have intended the ghola to come from Hayt, & for some reson to have forgotten the mentat ablilities.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 14:31

There is a mistake, i'm just voting for the smaller one.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2818
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Serkanner » 09 Jul 2010 14:33

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I voted Duncan because of the scene when Hayt is killed by Stilgar. I assume that after the killing Hayt's water would be spread upon the sand and there were no Tleilaxu near to gather cells. The later Duncans, in my opinion, therefore were created with the cells the Tleilaxu already had in their possession. I have always accepted the mistake by Frank and haven't given it much value because it isn't really important to the plot. Besides ... how many mistakes can we find made by Frank and compare that with the two idiots?


Do note that when I say he is a clone of Hayt, I do mean from cells that the BT gathered before his death, because yes, there's no way they could have gotten their hands on his corpse.

My argument is that either way FH made a mistake. If he meant for him to be Hayt, then he forgot to make him a mentat. But, if the mistake is the one you're saying it is, then it's not just 1 mistake. It is pages and pages and pages of mistakes - it's F-n GIGANTIC. It would almost be KJABH in scale in my opnion.

Duncan in GEoD remembers the twins (has to be Hayt), recognises Muad'dib's knife (has to be Hayt) and doesn't need to be brought up to speed on Paul becoming Muad'dib - he already knows about Muad'dib (has to be Hayt). There were several other Hayt-only memories I ran across during this re-read (I'm half way through now). I'm going to try and post all the ones I find from this point on as well.


Yeah well .. hmmm ... I also don't buy it that Frank screwed up so badly as you point out in your last paragraph. I haven't read GEoD in a very long time, and worked from memory. I have changed my vote to Hayt now until I have read GeoD myself again. I think you do have a strong case though.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby merkin muffley » 09 Jul 2010 14:35

Serkanner wrote:I have always accepted the mistake by Frank and haven't given it much value because it isn't really important to the plot.


I should say that I agree with that, and this never (and would never) get in the way of my enjoyment of God Emperor of Dune.
Last edited by merkin muffley on 09 Jul 2010 14:39, edited 2 times in total.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 14:36

Serkanner wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I voted Duncan because of the scene when Hayt is killed by Stilgar. I assume that after the killing Hayt's water would be spread upon the sand and there were no Tleilaxu near to gather cells. The later Duncans, in my opinion, therefore were created with the cells the Tleilaxu already had in their possession. I have always accepted the mistake by Frank and haven't given it much value because it isn't really important to the plot. Besides ... how many mistakes can we find made by Frank and compare that with the two idiots?


Do note that when I say he is a clone of Hayt, I do mean from cells that the BT gathered before his death, because yes, there's no way they could have gotten their hands on his corpse.

My argument is that either way FH made a mistake. If he meant for him to be Hayt, then he forgot to make him a mentat. But, if the mistake is the one you're saying it is, then it's not just 1 mistake. It is pages and pages and pages of mistakes - it's F-n GIGANTIC. It would almost be KJABH in scale in my opnion.

Duncan in GEoD remembers the twins (has to be Hayt), recognises Muad'dib's knife (has to be Hayt) and doesn't need to be brought up to speed on Paul becoming Muad'dib - he already knows about Muad'dib (has to be Hayt). There were several other Hayt-only memories I ran across during this re-read (I'm half way through now). I'm going to try and post all the ones I find from this point on as well.


Yeah well .. hmmm ... I also don't buy it that Frank screwed up so badly as you point out in your last paragraph. I haven't read GEoD in a very long time, and worked from memory. I have changed my vote to Hayt now until I have read GeoD myself again. I think you do have a strong case though.


If he meant for it to not be Hayt, then the mistake is near constant, I remember being annoyed by it pretty much every single time I've picked up the book this time through, so there was something in almost every time that had Hayt written all over it to me.

That said I need to address Merkin's post, because he just added some to the other side of the arguement.
Image

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby D Pope » 09 Jul 2010 14:40

merkin muffley wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I have always accepted the mistake by Frank and haven't given it much value because it isn't really important to the plot.


I should say that I agree with that, and this never (and would never) get in the way of my enjoyment of God Emperor of Dune.

EDIT:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Duncan in GEoD remembers the twins (has to be Hayt), recognises Muad'dib's knife (has to be Hayt) and doesn't need to be brought up to speed on Paul becoming Muad'dib - he already knows about Muad'dib (has to be Hayt). There were several other Hayt-only memories I ran across during this re-read (I'm half way through now). I'm going to try and post all the ones I find from this point on as well.


Okay, so now I'm gonna say it was definitely intended to be Hayt.


Agreed, for me it's a fine point that adds to the depth of the expirience.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby merkin muffley » 09 Jul 2010 14:40

A Thing of Eternity wrote:If he meant for it to not be Hayt, then the mistake is near constant, I remember being annoyed by it pretty much every single time I've picked up the book this time through, so there was something in almost every time that had Hayt written all over it to me.

That said I need to address Merkin's post, because he just added some to the other side of the arguement.



Actually, after reading the following, I'm going to say that it was definitely intended to be Hayt.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Duncan in GEoD remembers the twins (has to be Hayt), recognises Muad'dib's knife (has to be Hayt) and doesn't need to be brought up to speed on Paul becoming Muad'dib - he already knows about Muad'dib (has to be Hayt). There were several other Hayt-only memories I ran across during this re-read (I'm half way through now). I'm going to try and post all the ones I find from this point on as well.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 14:42

Let me give this a shot, I'm still in the "Hayt" camp, but I think you just made that into a bigger mistake than just FH forgetting to make him a mentat...

merkin muffley wrote:This whole thing confuses the hell out of me.
Hayt is the re-animated corpse of the original Duncan, so maybe that explains why GE Duncan would remember the twins.


Yup.

However, Leto II was adamant that his Duncans be unaltered by the Tleilaxu, and Hayt is definitely an altered, mentat version of Duncan.


Good point... but Leto would have also had some emotional attachment to Hayt, so may have considered that to be the point from which on the BT weren't allowed to mess with him.

Either way, this adds to the mistake, though in a relatively minor way.

If GE Duncan is a clone of Hayt, which would be the lesser FH mistake, it's still misleading as hell to have GE Duncan refer to the original Duncan's death at the hand of the Harkonnens as "my death." I realize a clone from Hayt would remember the first time he died, it's very confusing to refer to Hayt's memories of [the original Duncan's] death without ever putting it into context with the fact he was re-animated after that death.


Yes, but right then he is talking to the voice of Paul through Leto, so he may have felt a little extra "original" at the time - plus, it is still the only death he would remember... but you're right, the way he says it implies that he was surprised to some extent to find himself ressurected.

Also, we have to assume that Stilgar rendered Hayt immediately after killing him, so the idea that GE Duncan comes from Hayt assumes that cells were secretly collected during Hayt's lifetime, and there's no reference to that happening in GEoD (right?).


True as well, if FH did intend for him to be Hayt, then as far as I know he omitted explaining where/when the cells were from.

When you break it down, it's very unclear. At least, to me it is.


You definitely just muddied the waters further!

EDIT: This is fun. :D
Image

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby merkin muffley » 09 Jul 2010 15:38

It is fun, and it's very interesting. The ghola/clone thing is such a complex idea. You have convinced me that FH's intention was that GE Duncan was a clone of Hayt because there are many direct references to things only Hayt would've known about, but even the fact that GE Duncan isn't a mentat is a pretty subtle mistake.

EDIT:
Found this from MrFlibble from the Duncan in God Emperor thread:
MrFlibble wrote:However, an interesting observation is made in relation to ghola Teg:
He walked slowly beside Odrade, his hand sweaty in hers.

"Why are you so silent, Miles?"

"You're farmers," he said. "That's really what you Bene Gesserit do. "

She saw immediately what had happened, Mentat training coming out in him without his knowing. Best not explore that yet. "We are concerned about everything that grows, Miles. It was perceptive of you to see this."

So gholas do not lose their Mentat training, as it seems. Perhaps the phrase "he had been a Mentat several times" refers to the function, not to faculty, meaning that several Duncans were employed as Mentats by Leto II or had shown Mentat capabilities so that the Bene Gesserit recorded that. Otherwise it can be assumed that the Tleilaxu, after all, made certain modifications to the Duncans, probably following Leto II's orders. Or the Mentat potential in Duncan could be either developed into full talent with the restoration of the original memory, or it could be suppressed to never come to fruition.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
Nekhrun
Icelandic Wiener
Posts: 3287
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 16:27

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Nekhrun » 09 Jul 2010 16:58

I think it's less of a mistake if it's a Hayt Ghola.

He refers to things that only Hayt would've known and I think those character insights are important to the story and it seems less of a fuck up if that's what FH meant.
"If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

Happy Memorial Day everyone! -James C. Harwood

"Three of my videos have over 100 views."
"Over 500 views for my 'Open Question' video." -Nebiros

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Jul 2010 17:44

Who's the one vote for him not being Hayt?
Image

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18121
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Jul 2010 19:47

Leto drew his mouth into a tight line. The reference to his sister had troubled
the Duncan. The man knew intellectually that he was only the latest in a long
line of fleshly revivals, all products of the Tleilaxu axlotl tanks and taken
from the original cells at that. The Duncan could not escape his revived
memories. He knew that the Atreides had rescued him from Harkonnen bondage.

...

The wily Tleilaxu still produce my Duncans from the original cells. They do a
religiously forbidden thing and we both know it. I do not permit the artificial
manipulation of human genetics. But the Tleilaxu have learned how I treasure the
Duncans as the Commanders of my Guard. II do not think they suspect the
amusement value in this. It amuses me that a river now bears the Idaho name
where once it was a mountain. That mountain no longer exists. We brought it down
to get material for the high walls which girdle my Sareer.
Of course, the Tleilaxu know that I occasionally breed the Duncans back into my
own program. The Duncans represent mongrel strength . . . and much more. Every
fire must have its damper.

...

And he had his memories. They had shocked the identity back into him. Gholas
were supposed to be incapable of recovering the original identity. But the
Tleilaxu had done it and

he was forced to believe because he understood how it had been done.
In the beginning, he knew, there had been the fully formed ghola, adult flesh
without name or memories-a palimpsest upon which the Tleilaxu could write almost
anything they wished.
"You are Ghola," they had said. That had been his only name for a long time.
Ghola had been taken like a malleable infant and conditioned to kill a
particular man-a man so like the original Paul Muad'Dib he had served and adored
that Idaho now suspected it might have been another ghola. But if that were
true, where had they obtained the original cells?
Something in the Idaho cells had rebelled at killing an Atreides. He had found
himself standing with a knife in one hand, the bound form of the pseudo-Paul
staring up at him in angry terror.
Memories had gushered into his awareness. He remembered Ghola and he remembered
Duncan Idaho.
am Duncan Idaho, swordmaster of the Atreides.
He clung to this memory as he stood in the yellow room.
I died defending Paul and his mother in a cave-sietch beneath the sands of Dune.
I have been returned to that planet, but Dune is no more. Now it is only
Arrakis.

He had read the truncated history which the Tleilaxu provided, but he did not
believe it. More than thirty-five hundred years? Who could believe his flesh
existed after such a time? Except . . . with Tleilaxu it was possible. He had to
believe his own senses.

...

Idaho was a warrior, and the warrior attacks. This reassured Leto that the ghola
was a fully restored original. The morality play by which the Tleilaxu
reawakened a ghola's pre-death memories always left some uncertainties in the
gholas' minds. Some of the Duncans believed they had threatened a real Paul
Muad'Dib. This one carried such illusions.

...

The potential victims always survive, Leto thought. At least for the Duncans I
see. There have been slips, the fake Paul
slain and the Duncans wasted. But there are always more cells carefully
preserved from the original.


...

"I wish I had the memories of those others!"
"You couldn't have and still be the original."

...

"They believe I will not destroy them because they hold the original cells of my
Duncan Idaho," Leto said. "Do you understand, Duncan?"

...

"Lord, by preserving the flesh of the original Duncan Idaho and providing you
with restored gholas in his image and identity, we have always assumed. . ."


He is Duncan Idaho, Swordmaster of the Atreides, not Hayt, Zensunni Mentat.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Nekhrun
Icelandic Wiener
Posts: 3287
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 16:27

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Nekhrun » 09 Jul 2010 19:52

I don't think that references to the "original" eliminate Hayt. He is still the original Duncan.
"If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

Happy Memorial Day everyone! -James C. Harwood

"Three of my videos have over 100 views."
"Over 500 views for my 'Open Question' video." -Nebiros

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2818
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Serkanner » 09 Jul 2010 19:56

Nekhrun wrote:I don't think that references to the "original" eliminate Hayt. He is still the original Duncan.


... but it does make it very confusing.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
Nekhrun
Icelandic Wiener
Posts: 3287
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 16:27

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Nekhrun » 09 Jul 2010 19:56

Serkanner wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:I don't think that references to the "original" eliminate Hayt. He is still the original Duncan.


... but it does make it very confusing.

Agreed.
"If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

Happy Memorial Day everyone! -James C. Harwood

"Three of my videos have over 100 views."
"Over 500 views for my 'Open Question' video." -Nebiros

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18121
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Were the GE's Duncans Clones of Hayt or the Original? (poll)

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Jul 2010 19:59

Nekhrun wrote:I don't think that references to the "original" eliminate Hayt. He is still the original Duncan.


Whatever, I don't consider Hayt, a reanimated corpse, the original.

That's clearly not who Leto wanted.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman


Return to “˲”