Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I remember in Chapterhouse there's at least one scene with Scytale accompanying Odrade on a walk in the orchard, off the no-ship. I assume this means that he somehow was undetectable to prescience - but how? Certainly not through the Siona gene, I suppose? Or am I missing something?

You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

Wasn't Scytale captured as a refugee after the HMs nuked their homeworld? If that's the case, then seemingly he would need a mechanism to be free of prescience yeah. They mention his skin is immune to scanners, could it also shield him from prescience?

Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.

But maybe he just wanted to make an Atreides woman into a tank..?

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.

They put Siona genes in Duncan!

But maybe he just wanted to make an Atreides woman into a tank..?

Yes or for the obvious genetic value.

There's no way Odrade would have taken Scytale out of the no-ship if he didn't pass the proof of Siona.

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.

They put Siona genes in Duncan!

I wonder if Duncan's ability to gain all of the Duncan memories came from that Atreides addition to his genetic make-up.

Nekhrun wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.

They put Siona genes in Duncan!

I wonder if Duncan's ability to gain all of the Duncan memories came from that Atreides addition to his genetic make-up.

Wow, I've never thought about that! Very interesting!

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.

They put Siona genes in Duncan!

Wait, what? Why didn't they let Duncan out of the no-ship then?

Superdog wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:You don't think the BT can integrate the Siona Gene into their own gholas?

When Odrade was bargaining with Waff in Heretics, the latter seemed very interested in obtaining Atreides genes, which implies that the BT most probably did not have at least some of them (they had Muad'Dib's cells, after all), so I supposed they did not have the Siona gene.

They put Siona genes in Duncan!

Wait, what? Why didn't they let Duncan out of the no-ship then?

Because some cells had it, some didn't. They weren't sure.

"There's a great interest in Archives lately," Bellonda said. "Sisters who know
better come looking for confirmation -- whether such and so acolyte has a heavy
Siona gene-mark."
Odrade found this interesting. Their common Atreides ancestor from the Tyrant's
eons, Siona Ibn Fuad al-Seyefa Atreides, had imparted to her descendants this
ability that hid them from prescient searchers. Every person walking openly on
Chapterhouse shared that ancestral protection.
"A heavy mark?" Odrade asked. "Do they doubt that the ones in question are
protected?"
"They want reassurance," Bellonda growled. "And now may I return to Idaho? He
has the genetic mark and he does not. It worries me. Why do some of his cells
not have the Siona marker? What were the Tleilaxu doing?"
"Duncan knows the danger and he's not suicidal," Odrade said.
~CH:D

What does it mean to have a 'heavy mark'? Redundant copies of the gene perhaps?

If Scytale had the Siona gene, wouldn't that make him, technically, an Atreides?

MrFlibble wrote:If Scytale had the Siona gene, wouldn't that make him, technically, an Atreides?

Wow! Good thing he never thought of that himself; he'd have torn himself apart in some kind of epic honour-bound self-referential loyalty-loop.

Lundse wrote:

MrFlibble wrote:If Scytale had the Siona gene, wouldn't that make him, technically, an Atreides?

Wow! Good thing he never thought of that himself; he'd have torn himself apart in some kind of epic honour-bound self-referential loyalty-loop.

I'm certain he knew better than that

I doubt he's descended from Siona, the gene was probably added like it was to Idaho.

Freakzilla wrote:I doubt he's descended from Siona, the gene was probably added like it was to Idaho.

Scytale being a descendant of Siona is out of the question - after all, he was centuries older than her. I only meant that technically speaking, the presence of some Atreides genes in his DNA would make him part Atreides, which is kind of a weird thought

I don't think it's that weird, the Siona Gene is a very desirable trait to have, I have gotten used to thinking of just about everyone in the latter books being descended from Siona.

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I doubt he's descended from Siona, the gene was probably added like it was to Idaho.

Scytale being a descendant of Siona is out of the question - after all, he was centuries older than her. I only meant that technically speaking, the presence of some Atreides genes in his DNA would make him part Atreides, which is kind of a weird thought

Couldn't they just splice the gene in? They certainly tinkered with the Duncans, but every time he was still "Duncan."

Freakzilla wrote:I don't think it's that weird, the Siona Gene is a very desirable trait to have, I have gotten used to thinking of just about everyone in the latter books being descended from Siona.

Hm, I don't know why, but I had that impression the Tleilaxu did not have this gene. No positive stuff to support it though. Perhaps I thought so because they've engineered themselves some unique traits like their female offspring's Other Memory was blocked.

As for everyone being descendants of Siona, it's probably true for many BG's, but not the rest of the Old Empire's population. It is mentioned, for example, that only some of people on Gammu were Atreides descendants, and they were quite numerous due to the past possession of the planet by the Atreides.

A Little Galach wrote:Couldn't they just splice the gene in? They certainly tinkered with the Duncans, but every time he was still "Duncan."

If Tleilaxu Masters had the Siona gene, this is most probably they way it was instilled in them (I guess).

I think of at as:

"Siona gene" == some gene sequence, naturally present in the descendants of Siona.

"Atreides" == the result of two Atreides bonking.

Most of humanity inherited the Siona gene by being descended from Atreides, but the Tleilaxu could have the Siona gene without being Atreides.

HBJ

Would be nice if someone could provide actual quotes that would resolve the issue with BT Maters having the Siona gene. I'm interested in this because I wonder if it were possible for the Tleilaxu to replicate the Siona gene, i.e. to produce prescience-shielded individuals of their own making (they did succeed with artificial spice and even their own Kwisatz Haderach, after all).

Odrade took Scytale out of the no-ship for walks on Chapterhouse, is that not proof enough?

Freakzilla wrote:Odrade took Scytale out of the no-ship for walks on Chapterhouse, is that not proof enough?

While it's an indication that Scytale was shielded from prescience, it does not answer my question about whether this ability came from just using the Siona gene, or was something engineered by the Bene Tleilax independently.

MrFlibble wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:Odrade took Scytale out of the no-ship for walks on Chapterhouse, is that not proof enough?

While it's an indication that Scytale was shielded from prescience, it does not answer my question about whether this ability came from just using the Siona gene, or was something engineered by the Bene Tleilax independently.

Simplest answer would be that they isolated the Siona gene and implanted it in themselves I suppose. Could be that they just studied it and came up with something similar, but this is something that was bred and selected for by their prophet, so I would imagine that they would consider it an honour to use the actual gene.

I don't think FH says how they did it. Considering they were master geneticists...